"Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" and other questions and comments
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"Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" and ... - 2/8/2010 7:01:10 AM
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LittleTootie
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Hi, I'm totally new to the forums. Have been recieving e-mail devotionals for a couple weeks. I can't tell you the whole story of my journey in faith, but I'm at a time in my life where i've really been seeking God and reading more of His word. The past month or so has been wonderful, and I've felt the Holy Spirit working in my life. But every now and then I reach a standstill, and I'm overwhelmed with the thought that there is so much more about God I do not know. I do not know where to start when I begin my reading.
Question: Does Jesus know guilt? Isn't guilt a reaction to sin? If Jesus never sinned, how would he identify with guilt? I am thinking of those who are weighed down by unnecessary guilt. Something that happened to them that wasn't their fault and they feel like it was. Or just those who can't forgive themselves for their past sins.
I would love your insight, advice, or anything you can site from the bible that explains this.
Probably will be posting more often soon. Need spiritual guidance.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/8/2010 1:54:21 PM
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Elena1030
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Well, Jesus knows our thoughts and feelings, so in that way He knows what we go through when we feel guilty and have guilt.
Some theologians think (I think!) that Jesus felt the guilt that our sins brought on, when He took them on, on the cross. I'm not sure about that, but I figure that's the only time He could have experienced guilt Himself, since He never did anything to be guilty for.
Jesus definitely knows what it means to face temptation, since He did face it. He just never succumbed to it.
I'll have to think some more about your other questions. There is a thread on "shame and guilt" in the Protestants Only area of the Faith folder -- some of those posts may help, in the meantime. 
_____________________________
"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/8/2010 2:48:53 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
Question: Does Jesus know guilt? Isn't guilt a reaction to sin? If Jesus never sinned, how would he identify with guilt? I am thinking of those who are weighed down by unnecessary guilt. Something that happened to them that wasn't their fault and they feel like it was. Or just those who can't forgive themselves for their past sins.
Hello LT and Welcome to CW:
Since the Lord Jesus Christ was "numbered with the transgressors" and was "made sin for us" (He who knew no sin) He took all our sins ans guilt upon Himself in order to receive the full punishment for sins. Because His one great sacrifice for sins was sufficient for the sins of the whole world, He could cry "It is finished!"
However, since He is (has always been and always will be) sinless, He cannot "know guilt" as guilty sinners know it. At the same time, since He was made "like unto His brethren" He can empathize and sympathize with our dilemma and our predicament, and He has made a way for us to be free from guilt.
However, only those who have been born again, washed in His blood, forgiven of their sins, and clothed with His righteousness can be free from guilt. Therefore if they truly know what Christ has done for them, those who are children of God cannot and must not be burdened with guilt (whether necessary or unnecessary).
IOW Christians are to go to the Word of God daily for "washing by the Word", go to God daily to confess their sins and receive forgiveness, examine their hearts constantly for sins of thought, word, or deed and lay them before God, and stop sinning by God's grace and the power of the Holy Spirit.
If God has forgiven a Christian then that Christian -- by faith -- must forgive himself or herself. To cling to past sins and guilt reveals that either (1) one has not been truly saved, (2) one does not understand clearly what Christ has accomplished for him or her, or (3) one is living in unbelief even after being saved.
It is Satan who desires to keep Christians constantly under a cloud. However we are commanded to resist the devil and use the sword of the Spirit (the Word of God) against him. Therefore Christians can and do overcome the devil and his wicked devices.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/8/2010 9:58:48 PM
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LittleTootie
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Wow. Thank you so much. I wasn't expecting to recieve so much support so quickly. You guys are great. This really cleared it up. Thanks again.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/8/2010 11:39:25 PM
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JohnD70X7
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Omniscience knows all things.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/9/2010 11:30:51 AM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
Omniscience knows all things.
Well, yes...
But there's epistemological knowledge -- you know the facts of something.
And then there's ontological knowledge -- you know b/c you have directly experienced it.
And... because Jesus never actually did anything to be guilty of, He doesn't quite know guilt as we do exactly -- unless He has supernatural ability to take on our feelings as if they were His own. A special brand of empathy. Which definitely is quite possible -- as part of His omnipotence, as well as His omniscience.
Really is a frog-hair's difference in nuance of meaning... of course.
I guess what matters is that He loves us, He understands that we are weak, He enters into our feelings, and He has compassion for and mercy on us. And that He offers us forgiveness. That's even greater than just someone "feeling for" us. The power to forgive, truly forgive -- what other so-called god, in any other religion, has this?
\o/ to God!
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/9/2010 11:57:20 AM
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abraxas
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quote:
because Jesus never actually did anything to be guilty of, He doesn't quite know guilt as we do exactly -- unless He has supernatural ability to take on our feelings as if they were His own. A special brand of empathy.
It would require Jesus to actually believe that he did something wrong, right? Guilty feelings are tied to that belief.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/13/2010 2:28:36 PM
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drmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: abraxas
quote:
because Jesus never actually did anything to be guilty of, He doesn't quite know guilt as we do exactly -- unless He has supernatural ability to take on our feelings as if they were His own. A special brand of empathy.
It would require Jesus to actually believe that he did something wrong, right? Guilty feelings are tied to that belief.
No, one does not have to experience the identical feelings of another to empathize with them. Hebrews 4:13 says that all things are open to God's eyes and 4:15 says that Christ can sympathize with our weaknesses. Thus Jesus knows and understands our guilty feelings even though He never "believed that he did something wrong".
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/14/2010 7:19:04 AM
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abraxas
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I see what you're saying about empathy, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about actually feeling guilty for something you've done when you know you haven't done it. Unless a perfect being is able to delude himself, at least temporarily, he cannot experience guilt or shame for a wrongdoing.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/14/2010 8:51:38 AM
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drmark
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I'm sorry, but I don't see the relevance of your point, abraxas. Obviously, "knowing" and "experiencing" may be two separate things. I "know" the pain of childbirth having attended hundreds of labor and deliveries while in medical training. I have never "experienced" this feeling since I am male. How much more did Jesus "know" the guilt of all mankind by taking on the sins of the world yet He never "experienced" personal guilt while living a sin-free life!
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/15/2010 4:24:27 AM
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abraxas
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The OP question is "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" It's like a bible trivia question or something, and I'm saying no, if Jesus is perfect as the story goes then he can neither know nor experience "guilt". He can know about it, he can observe a person dealing with guilt. He can know that it's an unpleasant feeling like I can know menstrual cramps are an unpleasant feeling but beyond that no, he cannot "know what guilt feels like."
And if we waste anymore bandwidth on this someone should shoot us.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/15/2010 11:18:05 AM
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drmark
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quote:
It's like a bible trivia question or something, and I'm saying no And you're wrong! Especially since you cannot even begin to fathom the spiritual nature of the question when you equate the OP to a "bible trivia question".
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/15/2010 4:07:55 PM
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Saved34
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I believe he does because he took on himself what was justly ours. The weight of the entire world's guilt before God was laid on him. Even those who currently hate him, those that are indifferent to him, he bare their shame. He knows us and pity's us because he has dwelt among us as a man. Which is why we can go to him with guilt, burdens,sins ,whatever and fall on his mercy. He's not some cold God sitting way off in outerspace, he came right down to where we had a need. No greater love will ever be demonstrated than that of our Lord becoming a man for the specific reason to save man.
Luk 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
Luk 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
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2Ti 2:4 No one serving in the military gets mixed up in civilian matters, for his aim is to please his commanding officer.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/15/2010 10:42:08 PM
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abraxas
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Okay then, he miraculously deluded himself into thinking he'd done wrong, because that's the only way he could feel guilty and ashamed for having done something wrong.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/16/2010 2:24:19 AM
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JohnD70X7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
Omniscience knows all things.
Well, yes...
But there's epistemological knowledge -- you know the facts of something.
And then there's ontological knowledge -- you know b/c you have directly experienced it.
And... because Jesus never actually did anything to be guilty of, He doesn't quite know guilt as we do exactly -- unless He has supernatural ability to take on our feelings as if they were His own. A special brand of empathy. Which definitely is quite possible -- as part of His omnipotence, as well as His omniscience.
Really is a frog-hair's difference in nuance of meaning... of course.
I guess what matters is that He loves us, He understands that we are weak, He enters into our feelings, and He has compassion for and mercy on us. And that He offers us forgiveness. That's even greater than just someone "feeling for" us. The power to forgive, truly forgive -- what other so-called god, in any other religion, has this?
\o/ to God!
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things (John 1:1-3 / John 1:14 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24). He is responsible for all things. Including the way men and angels corrupted creation in the physical and the spiritual realms... which is why he not the Father or the Holy Spirit is the one who became a man to pay the sin debt of man (to also put down sin and evil for all eternity in both realms {Revelation 20}).
It may not be guilt he feels but it is certain he felt responsible.
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/16/2010 2:58:17 PM
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frankman
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While Jesus was here on earth in His human body He lived a sinless life, yet He experienced everything that we experience including guilt. Heb.4:14+15 tells us "Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has gone through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to the faith we profess. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have One who has been tempted in every way, just as we are- yet was without sin." Don`t you sometimes feel guilty about the way some of our fellow men live even though but by the grace of God you may not be living like they are? Paul says in Eph.5:12 "For it is shameful even to mention what the disobedient do in secret." And with shame should come guilt. So Christ, being the perfect Son of God, took upon Himself our wrong doing, and no doubt felt the guilt of our sin.
That is why Heb.4:16 is a reality to be thankful for if we are believers in Christ. "Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."
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"Is not My word like fire,` declares the LORD, `and like a hammer that breaks a rock in peaces?" Jeremiah 23:29
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/16/2010 5:15:40 PM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things (John 1:1-3 / John 1:14 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24). He is responsible for all things. Including the way men and angels corrupted creation in the physical and the spiritual realms... which is why he not the Father or the Holy Spirit is the one who became a man to pay the sin debt of man (to also put down sin and evil for all eternity in both realms {Revelation 20}).
It may not be guilt he feels but it is certain he felt responsible.
Huh?
I've never heard of this teaching.
My understanding is that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in creation. And thus, your assertion as to why the Son came to die, would be incorrect.
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"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/16/2010 11:43:46 PM
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JohnD70X7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things (John 1:1-3 / John 1:14 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24). He is responsible for all things. Including the way men and angels corrupted creation in the physical and the spiritual realms... which is why he not the Father or the Holy Spirit is the one who became a man to pay the sin debt of man (to also put down sin and evil for all eternity in both realms {Revelation 20}).
It may not be guilt he feels but it is certain he felt responsible.
Huh?
I've never heard of this teaching.
My understanding is that all three Persons of the Trinity were involved in creation. And thus, your assertion as to why the Son came to die, would be incorrect.
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim. You supplied none to back up yours. And had you read the scriptures I cited you might have withheld your comment until you had more than your oppinion to back your claim.
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Give to those who hold to untruth:
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And questions they cannot answer.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/16/2010 11:49:04 PM
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JohnD70X7
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John 1:1-3
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Colossians 1:16
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Isaiah 44:24
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
If the Father were co-creator as you suggest, the above would be a contradiction. Furthermore since there were many sons of God (the Word) then this could not be said of God (the Father):
John 1:14
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/17/2010 9:08:33 AM
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drmark
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quote:
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things quote:
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim.
Nice try, John, but all the verses you gave clearly indicate that God created BY the Second Person of the Trinity, not from or of Christ. Christ was the agency by which the Father created. Christ did NOT ALONE create all things! That statement would represent Modalistic heresy if you truly believed it.
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/17/2010 9:46:44 AM
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Elena1030
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim. You supplied none to back up yours. And had you read the scriptures I cited you might have withheld your comment until you had more than your oppinion to back your claim.
I have more than my opinion. I just didn't take the time to add the Scriptures and any supporting commentary. Sorry!
And I said that my understanding -- from what I've read and been taught -- would lead me to conclude that your assertion would be incorrect.
Genesis 1:26a (HCSB) -- "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness."
Plus, John 1:1-3, which you already quoted.
I can come back with a secondary source that better explains what I've been taught. But I don't have time at the moment.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things quote:
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim.
Nice try, John, but all the verses you gave clearly indicate that God created BY the Second Person of the Trinity, not from or of Christ. Christ was the agency by which the Father created. Christ did NOT ALONE create all things! That statement would represent Modalistic heresy if you truly believed it.
^^^^^ what drmark said
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"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
Prayer thread for singles who desire to marry someday
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/18/2010 2:16:07 AM
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JohnD70X7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things quote:
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim.
Nice try, John, but all the verses you gave clearly indicate that God created BY the Second Person of the Trinity, not from or of Christ. Christ was the agency by which the Father created. Christ did NOT ALONE create all things! That statement would represent Modalistic heresy if you truly believed it.
If you knew what modalism is... you'd know how much what I said (and backed with scripture) repudiates modalism. How can it be modalism that the 2nd Person of the Trinity created all things and neither the 1st Person nor the 3rd Person did?
It incenses me that you are accusing me of a heresy that I do not believe, nor can any of the things I have written here be taken to even hint I believe, based on strawman argumentation resulting from fractured logic and ignorance on your part.
Furthermore, you completely dismissed the word "preincarnate" in my statement, and proceed on this second false presumption of yours to publicly upbraid me for something I did not even say.
Are you this vindictive over the fact I refuted you on the subject of the eternal Son doctrine? that you would contrive these false charges against me in this thread and this (quoted) post as retaliation?
< Message edited by JohnD70X7 -- 2/18/2010 3:03:27 AM >
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/18/2010 2:54:00 AM
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JohnD70X7
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnD70X7
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim. You supplied none to back up yours. And had you read the scriptures I cited you might have withheld your comment until you had more than your oppinion to back your claim.
I have more than my opinion. I just didn't take the time to add the Scriptures and any supporting commentary. Sorry!
And I said that my understanding -- from what I've read and been taught -- would lead me to conclude that your assertion would be incorrect.
Genesis 1:26a (HCSB) -- "Then God said, 'Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness."
Um, this is another subject of theology misunderstood by most, not really relevant to the point I was making in that the 2nd Person of the Triune Godhead is the only one who actually did the creating of all things (John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). That the Father created only the body of the Son (which is what "only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14 means). See also Hebrews 10:5-7.
On the matter of the image of God... the actual image of God IS Christ Jesus. And we are created in his image / likeness.
Colossians 1:13-15
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Genesis 1:26a is the preincarnate Jesus (God the Word) stating he would make man in the form (image) of the image (form) the Father would make his incarnate body (the image of God). In other words, the prototype of humanity is not the first Adam but the last Adam (remember we are dealing with omniscient God who saw his own birth and death and resurrection before the foundations of the world (Revelation 13:8b). Let US make... the Father will make the body of the Son which is the image of God... and the Word who will become that Son makes man (Adam) according to that image of God... but only the Word made (the first) Adam... according to the image (form... detailed pattern if you will) of how the Father would one day make the last Adam (1 Corinthians 15:45). It is the only way Genesis 1:26a and Isaiah 44:24 do not contradict each other. Jesus himself said scripture cannot be broken. So when it appears to contradict, it's incumbent upon us to figure out how it is not in contradiction.
There are many such passages which people fight and argue over pet interpretations because they will not set aside their opinions to allow the scriptures to give us all God's truth. The rapture for example... will take place pre-great tribulation, mid-70th Week of Daniel, post-believer's tribulation clearing up what appeared to be conflicting scriptures on the subject that all three schools of eschatology (pre / mid / post tribulation) quote... what those schools of eschatology did not understand or consider is that the 70th Week of Daniel is not one 7-year tribulation period but a 7-year period of two 3.5-year tribulations.
quote:
Plus, John 1:1-3, which you already quoted.
I can come back with a secondary source that better explains what I've been taught. But I don't have time at the moment.
Fine. I'll be happy to discuss it when you have the time. Suffice it to say... unless I am wrong (and I never proceed from the assumption that I am never wrong) and unless I am wrong... you may find that what you thought that biblical source was saying (given the scriptures I have quoted to now consider) weren't saying quite what you thought they were before... and when that happens to us all it is a blessed moment where the Holy Spirit our Tutor breaks through our preconceived notions... preconceived notions which (sadly) too many Church doctrines are based on.
quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
From scripture we learn that Jesus (preincarnate) alone created all things quote:
I supplied the scriptures to back up my claim.
Nice try, John, but all the verses you gave clearly indicate that God created BY the Second Person of the Trinity, not from or of Christ. Christ was the agency by which the Father created. Christ did NOT ALONE create all things! That statement would represent Modalistic heresy if you truly believed it.
^^^^^ what drmark said
I hope after you've read just what drmark said (in light of what I have written and also in how I answered his false charges against me) you will reconsider your echoing and lauding his contrived statement.
< Message edited by JohnD70X7 -- 2/18/2010 3:05:18 AM >
_____________________________
Give to those who hold to untruth:
Answers they cannot question,
And questions they cannot answer.
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RE: "Does Jesus know what guilt feels like?" ... - 2/18/2010 8:31:38 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Um, this is another subject of theology misunderstood by most, not really relevant to the point I was making in that the 2nd Person of the Triune Godhead is the only one who actually did the creating of all things (John 1:1-3, John 1:14, Colossians 1:16, Isaiah 44:24). That the Father created only the body of the Son (which is what "only begotten of the Father" in John 1:14 means). See also Hebrews 10:5-7. John, this will be my last post on this issue because it is not really related to the OP, in my opinion. There are numerous references throughout the OT that clearly illustrate the Lord seated on His Throne. St John writes in Revelation that He Who sits on the Throne created all things - Rev 4:11. Jesus Christ, the Second Person of the Godhead, is at the right hand of the Father - Mark 16:19, Acts 7:55, Rom 8:34, Hebr 10:12, etc. Thus it is abundantly clear that God the Father Who sits on the Throne created all things, and NOT God the Son who is at the right hand of the Father.
quote:
I hope after you've read just what drmark said (in light of what I have written and also in how I answered his false charges against me) you will reconsider your echoing and lauding his contrived statement. Sorry John, but I'm pretty sure Elena will prefer to believe the Truth written in Revelation by the Apostle for whom you were named over your faulty human misunderstanding of Scripture!
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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