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Group projects - 11/11/2008 9:35:27 AM
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momma_bee
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I am feeling peeved about group projects - so let's talk.
Does your student do them? How often? Like them? Loathe them?
How are they graded?
What happens if the rest of the group performs at different levels or does not complete the work?
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RE: Group projects - 11/11/2008 9:54:16 AM
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momma_bee
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BigBee recently received a zero in a group project. Three kids had to work together to write a monologue (note to teacher, look up definition of monologue) Assigned Thursday, due Tuesday. Cannot speak to each other during presentation, cannot repeat each other, as I understand, they each were supposed to have a few lines, then switch. Oh, and dress your part...
His group was a scout, a football/hockey player and a band member. Thursday work assigned, teacher promised time in class the next day. Football & Band practice that night. Friday, work in class, football & band that night. Saturday. Band competition. Sunday - hockey game after church. Monday, no time in class, football & band after school, scouts in the evening. Tuesday, no project - ZERO.
On one hand - I knew nothing of this or their problems and the boys never picked up the phone to work together. One boy has no internet. After this discussion we introduced them to 3-way calls, but it was hard to get them at home at the same time. I can't invite them to our house, it is a mess. I can't invite them to one of their houses either.
On the other hand, they never learned HOW to do a group project. The idea of working with people whose schedules MATCHED yours didn't occur to them. They are used to having enough time in class to get it completed and I really think they anticipated having time Monday/Tuesday in class and just turn them at the end of class. BigBee didn't hear the part about the costumes.
Last two projects. One, they used 3-way calling and still couldn't get them at their respective homes at the same times. Then, they literally 'phoned in' their work, while BigBee took notes and then typed it.
Last one - they worked in class, but the software doesn't live at our house. So, he redid the entire project. He called them up and asked one to email a rewrite of his story - never received it. Called the other one and he wasn't at home and had told BigBee during the day that it didn't matter since he would be absent the day it was due. They got a perfect score. My son wrote every word himself.
So, I hate them. I hate how they run and hate how they are scored. If he didn't do the other kids work, not only would his buddies be mad at him, he would have an incomplete. If he does it for them, it is cheating so he can't complain afterwards.
He needs to get a different group.
As a side note, the last project was a newspaper and they had obituaries. Band kid had created a character for a different project, made-up name and such. BigBee found a funny looking photo and killed the character. He wrote the obit saying he died at Woodstock while Jimi Hendrix played the National Anthem.
What is up with these projects? It seems to me that the teachers are only grading 1/3 the papers-projects and they aren't teaching them how to make the most of it.
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RE: Group projects - 11/11/2008 7:23:37 PM
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garsyt
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here group projects don't bother me too much - of course we have never had any serious issues with the kids getting things done with their groups in school. Ty just recently had a group project to create a graphic cartoon script complete with pictures based on the novel they were reading. He was up until nearly midnight one night conversing with one group member over the phone and another via the internet as they all had their portions they were working on but had to coordinate colors and whatever to make sure when they put it together the next day that everything would look right. Because our elementary schools area is the biggest in the district, so teachers take measures to make sure they give plenty of time to work on things in school and that kids AND parents know what is do and when.
Blessings,
Garsy
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RE: Group projects - 11/12/2008 12:06:54 AM
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uponeagleswings
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I hated group projects as a kid. There's always at least one person in the group who doesn't do their share, and someone who ends up doing most of the work. I would much rather work by myself. I have seen teachers do it where kids can confidentially grade their group-mates or say if someone didn't do their share.
The only good thing that has ever come from a group project is that my now-DH and I met in the 5th grade when we were assigned to do a report on Jim Abbot (the baseball player). I remember me doing most of the work, but he remembers differently. 
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RE: Group projects - 11/24/2008 8:25:51 AM
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momma_bee
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ANOTHER project. Same group. Foolish son...
This one was assigned on Monday and worked on Monday / Tuesday in class. They discovered that the document the teacher gave them as a resource was FULL of dead links. She didn't adjust the deadline and they were looking for some obscure stuff. She was off Wednesday / Thursday. BigBee was out Friday
Ironically, this is the teacher that wouldn't let him make up the AR4 test.
There were 10 questions, they divided them up and Hockey kid agreed to do the compiling. BigBee mailed his stuff out Sunday afternoon and called to make sure it arrived. HK called back to say that the Band Kid called him up and said 'do mine for me.'
And, they realized they only had to do 8 of the questions. BigBee had already done 4. The 3 he agreed to do and the leftover one.
Last I heard, HK was doing the other 4 and they were going to the teacher to tell her that BK did nothing and they were only a partnership. I have mixed feelings on this as the project is due today and neither of them called to tell BK he was kicked out of the group.
Looking at it, it seems they get ONE computer per group so if they divide up the project and take turns on the computer (or help each other) that may not be the best way to work on it. They should work together and divide up what is left. KWIM? Or considering the BK doesn't have internet access, they could let him do his part at school.
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RE: Group projects - 11/24/2008 8:44:13 AM
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buckifn
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It sounds like all the kids mentioned have schedules that allows very little if any time for schoolwork at home in the evenings and on weekends.
Maybe the group project can help them and their parent's realize there needs to be more time when schoolwork is priority number 1?
All of the other things mentioned except church on Sun. morning always played second place to academic assignments in my house when I was a kid, and when I was the parent.
I think having everyone's grade depend on the efforts of each one is a good lesson, although a tough one.
If 1 child does not have computer access then it is the group's responsibility to decide how to work around that challenge imo...and is a good way to prepare student's for more challenges later.
I think one of the reasons group projects are so disliked is because they actually require working together and accountability, two things that aren't usually easy.
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RE: Group projects - 11/24/2008 9:13:39 AM
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iluvatar
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I always hated group projects, but now that I'm older and have certain hobbies & professional interests, I actually seek them out over things to do by myself. I like playing a part in a larger whole and being able to bounce ideas off others. In the real world, it's unrealistic in most situations to complete an entire project on their own. Even if it's possible, it's not necessarily a good idea - it's better to have a well-rounded workforce than to have one guy who's the expert on a particular system, but with nobody else to step in to replace him if he gets hit by a bus.
I don't have a problem with groups projects if they're administered well - kids have to understand their role and responsibilities in a project and be motivated to participate. Also, the project has to lend itself to such division. Dividing up a Q&A sheet amongst "group members" is silly. Engineering projects (design and build a go-kart or a video game), however, are much easier to break up and delegate to specific roles.
Learning how to evaluate team members (and then choose others if necessary) is an important skill. I have to do this a bit in my job - I try to balance the load, but despite everybody putting in solid effort and despite the fact that we're all friends, certain guys are just better at certain tasks than others. In order to get my job done, I need to be able to evaluate this, report it to my superiors, and plan future tasks based on past results. It's tough (for me anyways) and it has to be handled delicately, but it's important that I do it.
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Group projects - 11/24/2008 9:19:43 AM
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momma_bee
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With regards to my son's overall problems, my most recent post, or the general feel of the thread?
I ask because the Band and Hockey Kid designations in my most recent post were intended to replace names and to reintroduce the kids from before.
BigBee was out Friday for Band, and the Band Kid was not. (I find that funny) But, that means he was out for an educational trip.
This teacher seems to require quite a few group projects but very few chances for individuals to shine or be recognized for achievements. Complimentary strengths working toward a common goal is a good thing. Strong students carrying weak or disinterested students to an "A" is encouraging exploitation of another human being.
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RE: Group projects - 11/24/2008 9:31:05 AM
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JuliaHop
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At the lower levels, I don't agree with group projects that would not be done in the classroom.
Younger children do not have access (in general) to the internet, cell phones, cars, etc.... Their times are scheduled within the framework of an entire family and work at home group projects would be very difficult for children to coordinate and do fairly (at a younger age, it is the parents insuring that the cooperation and work occurs-not the child being responsible).
At the older high school level, if the children have the resources to communicate and research together then I have less of a problem with the project. The catch would be that they have the ability to meet together and the telecommunication resources that would enable them to complete the project.
Even at the university level my children encountered coordination difficulties (class schedules, work schedules, etc...) and weak project partners. At least at that level the student has the ability to control the situation and work out alternatives. I think that in the times that the experiences were challenging, my adult chiildren learned some necessary leadership skills.
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For God so loved the World, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:16
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RE: Group projects - 11/24/2008 9:47:59 AM
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coolfamily6
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One of my children LOVES group projects even though she is one of the kids that does most of the work. We have never had to work on them outside of school that I recall. Once dd did stay after school to work but the teacher stayed and allowed them to work in her room.
DS HATES most things group related. He is very black and white following rules to the last letter. A lot of kids in his groups seem to want to cut corners and it becomes an issue. DS always ends up frustrated once recently to tears and ended up in the guidance office.
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If your bible is a mess; your life won't be.
~Encouragement a mom gave to our children at our First Grader's Bible Ceremony!
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RE: Group projects - 11/25/2008 10:50:41 AM
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momma_bee
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Errgh
BK tried to give HK the work on a pen drive and HK didn't take it. That is why BK told him to do his portion of the questions.
So, I've been on a tear at the wrong kid.
From what I can tell, these boys, who I have known since Kindergarden and adore in a maternal way, are all driving me nuts (including the one I birthed) and learning the wrong thing.
They are learning to lie, to take advantage of others, and to allow themselves to be walked on.
And, HK's computer crashed so the work wasn't done when it was due and the teacher made them go first.
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RE: Group projects - 11/25/2008 11:20:17 AM
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emjayzee
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I find it odd that they keep working in the same groups. Do they ever get reassigned or regrouped?
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RE: Group projects - 11/25/2008 12:21:09 PM
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momma_bee
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Nope - the teacher allows them to pick their own groups.
I questioned this a few years ago and they explained that if they weren't happy with the group, they'd pick different kids the next time.
I keep telling him to go to an all girls group but it doesn't happen.
I need to get in there, but WHEN?
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RE: Group projects - 11/29/2008 6:28:49 PM
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MrsTracy72
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My exchange son was in a class that worked mostly only in groups and if he didn't get his name on the page they handed in, he got a zero eventhough he did help with the work. I didn't think that was fair, but the teacher did correct the situation when I spoke with him about it.
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RE: Group projects - 12/22/2008 9:34:14 AM
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floydette
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uponeagleswings
There's always at least one person in the group who doesn't do their share, and someone who ends up doing most of the work.
Sounds like real life. 
My dd gets frustrated because she ends up on the end of "doing most of the work." The positive side, is that most teachers she has had see that. So her grade reflects the differences in work level. While that may not be how it always is in real life, it does help her see that people do pay attention.
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“The eye sees only what the mind is prepared to comprehend.” Henri Bergson
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RE: Group projects - 12/22/2008 3:46:23 PM
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MrsTracy72
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I forgot to say this. I do think that group projects are great because there are so many benefits to learning how to be a part of a group. They also learn to see that people are different and have different opinions, habits, and approaches to things.
That being said, I don't think that any group project would be successful unless there is a teacher who is just as involved in them. By that, I mean, checking in to see who is working and who isn't. Making sure that people are staying on track and learning to work together rather than nitpicking at who didn't do what. If you don't have a teacher willing to be involved to the extent that they are checking in on each group and making sure that all students have a specific part of the project and getting it done or grading accordingly, then it isn't going to work.
Like my situation above. My student participated in a project but for some reason didn't add his name to the final paper. I don't know what happened. If it was handed in when he wasn't in class or what, but to fail him for not having a name on the paper, is probably not a good idea unless the teacher went back to the group and asked them if they all put forth the effort. It all came down to a name. I am sure there were others in the group who did get their name on the paper but didn't do any work and they were graded with the group. That is why I think the teacher needs to be invested in making sure that they are working together and if there are problems, letting them know they need to come to the teacher as a group and work it out.
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