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Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 11:56:09 AM
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StrongWisdom
Posts: 32
Joined: 11/30/2008
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I am faced with a difficult friendship.
I have a good friend that seems to not have it together. She is always short of money, groceries, rent payment, etc. Specifically, this week, when we were getting things for thanksgiving, she did not have the money to pay in full for her groceries. I helped her out. For her rent,etc..she gets help from a family member.
My friends say that I "help" her too much, and that she is grown and can learn to take care of herself. She never really asks for help, but she will just kind of go through difficult situations and make do without making things better for herself. Because she is a good friend, I don't want to continue to see her in terrible scenarios.
It's not that I am financially helping her out so much...I will just call and check on her...and kind of just strongly encourage that she get around to do somethings. She just seems to take her time with things. For example, she was in need of a job...but it just took her awhile to go out fill applications, etc...because she wanted a certain kind of job, but wasn't really sensing the urgency of having income asap. I would ask how the job search went "today," and she would reply that she didn't get around to it. My other friends just say "leave it alone. she will figure it out"
And, she in most cases won't ask for help because of pride, but really need to find ways to get assistance. She can even probably qualify for disability but she won't accept a health challenge she has. She wants to go out with us and go on trips, but we don't all the time invite her because we know her money is short.
I don't want to see her have a hard time. But, maybe if I just stop helping...she would unfortunately hit a brick wall and start getting it together. Is that fair or not very nice? What should I be doing?
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 12:28:01 PM
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pbaribeault
Posts: 1105
Joined: 4/29/2005
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There is a space between rescuing and abandoning... it's called teaching (or mentoring or coaching). Many 'friends' do not want a 'friend' in this role, but it's worth a try in your situation. You must go gently, but be self-secure in your offer to help her sort out her finances once and for all, so that they will never be 'out of control' again, and she will have her own rescue account for if some 'bad luck' arrives. Tell her that if she is willing to try this plan with her, you will provide the first deposit to her 'rescue account' so that she starts out in a secure place. (If not, then if she wants a help-out from you again, she had better be willing to agree to this plan or to not even worry about asking you.) Chances are she wants to figure it out, she just feels stupid and ashamed. Encourage her by casting an image of her being proud, secure, self sufficient and unworried.
Then dive right in to budgeting. Buy a pack of monopoly money and a little multi-pocket file thingie, bring a calculator and plenty of paper. Write out her income (all sources, using NET figures) (you might need her to look at pay stubs or bank statements) total it for an average month and make a pile of that much monopoly money.
Lay out some papers on a table and write expenses like 'rent' 'groceries' 'household needs' 'donations' 'free money' 'gas' 'car insurance' 'health insurance' etc. with space for a pile of monopoly cash beside/under each. Ask her to show herself where her money goes (again, she might need to consult her bank statements or receipts).
Most people are more than capable of this kind of 'math' for money management. It becomes very clear if there is actually too little for her lifestyle or if she is wasteful and spends where she doesn't need to, or doesn't know where she spends. With your help, she should be able to get her little piles in line, adjusting her expectations as needed.
Then you write out the plan together (monthly) and divide it into pay-periods. (If she is 2-weekly, just consider that half-monthly, and the extra-check months can go to savings, holidays, clothing, car repairs or other things that are not usually in a monthly budget. If she is not 2-weekly, she will need to set aside to accumulate enough to cover these and other things in her 'rescue account').
Finally reduce it to a "note to self" point form instruction sheet. For example:
Dear Self: When I deposit my mext pay check,
(1) Leave 1/2 of all monthly out-of-account expenses (rent, insurance etc. -- things that are paid by check or bank transfer) which is $630
(2) Withdraw cash for all pay-from-wallet expenses (groceries, household goods, free money -- no checks or debit cards for these things) for that 1/2 month: which is $350
(3) Put proper amounts in each little pocket of my pre-budgeted multi-pocket file thingie.
(4) Transfer from this account to my new account $100 for future emergencies.
(5) Pay my off my credit card bill or debt $100. (Don't use credit any more.)
(6) If total pay was more than $1180, transfer most of that to the 'rescue account' but take some out in cash for extra 'free money'. (if total pay was less than $1180, transfer less to 'rescue account'.)
(7) Do not touch accounts again until next deposit.
(8) If I run out of cash for one of of my pay-from-wallet expenses, I can wait for my next pay check, borrow from another pay-from-wallet category, or access my 'rescue account' if it's really important.
If she's on side with this, start her out with a pre-rescue by putting $50 into her new self-rescue account for her. Tell her that if it is not working for her, you will help her re-work it next month too, in case she over or under estimated something. Tell her how smart she is, and how it must feel good to be the boss on the money instead of letting it boss her around.
Of course, if she doesn't want you in this role, there is nothing more you can do. Quit with the rescues and she will figure her own way.
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 12:45:42 PM
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StrongWisdom
Posts: 32
Joined: 11/30/2008
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quote:
Buy a pack of monopoly money and a little multi-pocket file thingie, bring a calculator and plenty of paper. Write out her income (all sources, using NET figures) (you might need her to look at pay stubs or bank statements) total it for an average month and make a pile of that much monopoly money.
This is an interseting approach. I would of never thought to have used play money. I may even try this for myself or a way to teach children/youth. Thanks for the great idea!
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 12:51:26 PM
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StrongWisdom
Posts: 32
Joined: 11/30/2008
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quote:
There is a space between rescuing and abandoning... it's called teaching (or mentoring or coaching). Many 'friends' do not want a 'friend' in this role, but it's worth a try in your situation.
I agree that there there needs to be somebody in this role. I just question why it has to be me, and I often worry about my credibility since my friend is about 10 years older than me. Wouldn't she have more knowledge/wisdom than I? And, just chooses not to use it? My other friends (who are my age) fuss when I try to teach them lessons on various things and exclude this one friend from stronger criticism. It's the age gap that concerns me, so I don't know how to be helpful but not disrespectful. (although i respect all my friends). But, maybe I need to change my role if I'm the one in the group who is tyring to help. And your budgeting idea offers a great method in trying not to come across harsh...
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 12:52:43 PM
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mvic
Posts: 1801
Joined: 1/17/2008
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This person is very lucky to have you as a friend. The greatest gift we can give someone is our time and our help. Especially in these busy times and with the economic problems which most of us face.
You're doing right in advising her, prodding her and encouraging her. Continue to do so.
But be careful regarding how much you support her financially. By giving her money this is a resource which rightly belongs to your family and yourself. Make sure your generous giving is not disproportionate from what you spend on yourself and your family. Also make sure she does not become dependent on your donations. This does not help her or you.
The gift of time is the greatest help you can give her - proportionately.
_____________________________
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 1:30:28 PM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 8648
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StrongWisdom
quote:
There is a space between rescuing and abandoning... it's called teaching (or mentoring or coaching). Many 'friends' do not want a 'friend' in this role, but it's worth a try in your situation.
I agree that there there needs to be somebody in this role. I just question why it has to be me, and I often worry about my credibility since my friend is about 10 years older than me. Wouldn't she have more knowledge/wisdom than I? And, just chooses not to use it? My other friends (who are my age) fuss when I try to teach them lessons on various things and exclude this one friend from stronger criticism. It's the age gap that concerns me, so I don't know how to be helpful but not disrespectful. (although i respect all my friends). But, maybe I need to change my role if I'm the one in the group who is tyring to help. And your budgeting idea offers a great method in trying not to come across harsh...
The proposal made is a VERY good one, and one that I will try in the future as well.
Are you and your friend close friends, or merely strong acquaintances? The reason I ask could have a lot to how your friend reacts to your suggestion. If you are close friends, then by all means, gently ask her how she would feel about budgeting her life and getting situated with her finances. Then again, gently tell her why you want to help her, and how.
Lastly, don't let your age get in the way of helping a friend. It seems that you are just as clueless as to how to help her hence you seeking advice. If you are worried that she should be more mature/wiser than you, keep in mind that maturity and wisdom comes in different size packages and everyone is different. My BFF is almost 10 years younger than me and there are things that I would ask him for help on, and there are things that I wouldn't. *shrug*
Good luck and I hope to hear how it goes for you. 
_____________________________
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 4:09:47 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/26/2007
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Bless you for caring about and helping this person, StrongWisdom. (Hug)
OK, let's define our terms. Friendship is a relationship that is based on commonality - the things you have in common, with give and take on both sides. Ministry, on the other hand, is based on one person giving and the other receiving. Is she a friend or a ministry?
quote:
ORIGINAL: StrongWisdom
I have a good friend that seems to not have it together. She is always short of money, groceries, rent payment, etc.
Specifically, this week, when we were getting things for thanksgiving, she did not have the money to pay in full for her groceries. I helped her out. For her rent,etc..she gets help from a family member.
This person is not able to pay her basic needs: food and shelter. Does she have a less-than-livable income or does she spend foolishly?
OK, I see she isn't interested in getting a job. She's telling you loud and clear she won't get one. If she isn't motivated to get an income, then she probably is counting on other people's income to take care of her. This is not responsible adulthood but prolonged dependency (and I bet she's not your child).
I've heard it said, and it seems to be true in my limited experience: don't care more about someone else's issues than they do.
This is raising your hair because you wouldn't live this way - you'd immediately rustle up a job and start living within your means. She's different. She's willing to let others rescue her... and then there's next month's bills. And the month after that. She's not thinking ahead because someone else will catch her and save her every time.
If you are willing to take her on as a dependent, you could. You could pay her bills and give her a free place to live with you and clean up after her (because I bet she'd eat your food and dirty your dishes, but I doubt she'd wash anything or pay for the food because she hasn't got a job. I don't know her, but I've known people like her and they all did this. And if you ask them to leave, they're sick/unhealthy/can't do it because of X/you're mean/you let them down/they can't get a job this month but maybe next month/the moon is full/whatever).
quote:
My friends say that I "help" her too much, and that she is grown and can learn to take care of herself. She never really asks for help, but she will just kind of go through difficult situations and make do without making things better for herself. Because she is a good friend, I don't want to continue to see her in terrible scenarios.
You're a nice person with a caring heart and maybe a rescuing mentality. There are others like you in her life. They can't stand to see people get hurt - even when the person hurts themselves. And it might make you feel good about yourself to help her; ask yourself if that's part of what keeps you doing this (don't tell us).
This gal doesn't need to improve her lot because she has everything she needs already. You're keeping her alive but not making her situation any better. Because you can't live her life for her. She has to want to do it for herself. You could volunteer at the local rescue mission that has training for helping people get back on their feet, and spend your time/resources there instead. It would result in more helpless people being able to make a life for themselves. The net advance from you helping your friend is zero. She's no better off.
quote:
I would ask how the job search went "today," and she would reply that she didn't get around to it. My other friends just say "leave it alone. she will figure it out"
I'm afraid I must agree with them; you're caring more about this gal's life than she is. It's time to put your efforts elsewhere.
quote:
She wants to go out with us and go on trips, but we don't all the time invite her because we know her money is short.
She doesn't want it bad enough to get a job to afford it so you don't have to pay her way. She's a mooch.
quote:
I don't want to see her have a hard time. But, maybe if I just stop helping...she would unfortunately hit a brick wall and start getting it together. Is that fair or not very nice? What should I be doing?
When a mama giraffe gives birth, she almost immediately starts kicking the newborn baby. When it gets tired of being kicked, it gets up and finds it can walk and then run... away from the lions who are always around. It's a severe mercy.
And yes, I've had "friends" like her, which is why I'm so strong about this now - I got tired of people being dependents when they weren't under-age children.
In your shoes, I'd sit down with her, tell her: " I cared about you and am worried about you, and am especially worried that you give no indications that you are going to step up to being an adult and take care of yourself. So, it distresses me to do this, but I'm not going to support you anymore in any way. I won't give you money, pay your way to anything, or do anything you should be doing for yourself. It's not that I don't care, but I haven't been helping you be an adult and enjoy the satisfaction that comes from doing life well. I am your friend but no longer your supporter. You are welcome to come on trips if you can pay your own way, and we'll collect everyone's money before we leave and pay our expenses from that as we go. If you haven't got the money you can't come. If you can't afford to eat, then I guess you'll have to sign up for public assistance. Here's their phone number. I know you know how to get a job. You'll need to find the bus that will get you there. Give me calls and let me know how you're doing. I want to hear your victories but I no longer want to hear you talk about what you don't have. That's your business to make it happen. Here's a cup of coffee and a biscuit for you, and let me tell you about my car that is making a funny noise..."
If she is truly planning on living on your and other's incomes for life, you'll get a flood of excuses at this time. Or tears. Or both. Her childhood is over and you are helping her become an adult. Repeat as needed. If she gets mad, tell her you'll be happy to talk to her when she can be civil, then leave. Don't take any nonsense - she's scrambling to keep her free lunch from going away!
If she tearfully renounces your friendship because you're being so mean and keeps that attitude for some time, it probably means your support was the only thing about you she cherished. There are other people who would love to get a hand up and would appreciate you for it as well as get their lives back again. Check church ministries and rescue missions. God bless you, dear heart. I think you are wonderful. (((Hugs)))
< Message edited by deermousie -- 12/1/2008 4:52:07 PM >
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 4:48:30 PM
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journeyman7
Posts: 65
Joined: 11/11/2007
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From my personal opinion in a matter such as this, we often can be stuck in a seemingly mire of paradox when it comes to helping. We all now it is the Christian thing to do to help people, but there comes a point when helping is not helping but turns into enabling. It is just a fact of life that some people do not have the intestinal fortitude or discipline to do things themselves but rely on others. I say this with the condition that I don't not know you or your friend. This is the where the paradox exists, help turning into enabling, where is the line drawn? Jesus was very clear in his ministry. He told the rich man to who asked him what should he do to be saved, Jesus told him to sell his possession and follow Him. As the man walked away, Jesus did not enable him but let him walk. This is somewhat apples and oranges, but sometimes tough love is the best love.
Give every effort to help to an extent, but make it clear on how they need to progress or helping is not a viable option anymore.
The key thing is to not feel guilty in the matter, which is very easy to do. If you give every effort to help the person progress, but they simply want the help with the progression, it is time to go. For instance, we have all heard of the teach someone to fish and they eat forever and give them a fish and they eat for a day adage. Don't supply the fish for lunch, show them how to fish, if they are unaccepting of this advice, don't feel guilty of no longer helping.
I hope this assists you in the dilemma that you are facing. I have been there myself.
God Bless,
_____________________________
Mt 16:24 -
Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 4:52:39 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1944
Joined: 9/26/2007
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Bless you for caring about and helping this person, StrongWisdom. (Hug)
OK, let's define our terms. Friendship is a relationship that is based on commonality - the things you have in common, with give and take on both sides. Ministry, on the other hand, is based on one person giving and the other receiving. Is she a friend or a ministry?
quote:
ORIGINAL: StrongWisdom
I have a good friend that seems to not have it together. She is always short of money, groceries, rent payment, etc.
Specifically, this week, when we were getting things for thanksgiving, she did not have the money to pay in full for her groceries. I helped her out. For her rent,etc..she gets help from a family member.
This person is not able to pay her basic needs: food and shelter. Does she have a less-than-livable income or does she spend foolishly?
OK, I see she isn't interested in getting a job. She's telling you loud and clear she won't get one. If she isn't motivated to get an income, then she probably is counting on other people's income to take care of her. This is not responsible adulthood but prolonged dependency (and I bet she's not your child).
I've heard it said, and it seems to be true in my limited experience: don't care more about someone else's issues than they do.
This is raising your hair because you wouldn't live this way - you'd immediately rustle up a job and start living within your means. She's different. She's willing to let others rescue her... and then there's next month's bills. And the month after that. She's not thinking ahead because someone else will catch her and save her every time.
If you are willing to take her on as a dependent, you could. You could pay her bills and give her a free place to live with you and clean up after her (because I bet she'd eat your food and dirty your dishes, but I doubt she'd wash anything or pay for the food because she hasn't got a job. I don't know her, but I've known people like her and they all did this. And if you ask them to leave, they're sick/unhealthy/can't do it because of X/you're mean/you let them down/they can't get a job this month but maybe next month/the moon is full/whatever).
quote:
My friends say that I "help" her too much, and that she is grown and can learn to take care of herself. She never really asks for help, but she will just kind of go through difficult situations and make do without making things better for herself. Because she is a good friend, I don't want to continue to see her in terrible scenarios.
You're a nice person with a caring heart and maybe a rescuing mentality. There are others like you in her life. They can't stand to see people get hurt - even when the person hurts themselves. And it might make you feel good about yourself to help her; ask yourself if that's part of what keeps you doing this (don't tell us).
This gal doesn't need to improve her lot because she has everything she needs already. You're keeping her alive but not making her situation any better. Because you can't live her life for her. She has to want to do it for herself. You could volunteer at the local rescue mission that has training for helping people get back on their feet, and spend your time/resources there instead. It would result in more helpless people being able to make a life for themselves. The net advance from you helping your friend is zero. She's no better off.
quote:
I would ask how the job search went "today," and she would reply that she didn't get around to it. My other friends just say "leave it alone. she will figure it out"
I'm afraid I must agree with them; you're caring more about this gal's life than she is. It's time to put your efforts elsewhere.
quote:
She wants to go out with us and go on trips, but we don't all the time invite her because we know her money is short.
She doesn't want it bad enough to get a job to afford it so you don't have to pay her way. She's a mooch.
quote:
I don't want to see her have a hard time. But, maybe if I just stop helping...she would unfortunately hit a brick wall and start getting it together. Is that fair or not very nice? What should I be doing?
When a mama giraffe gives birth, she almost immediately starts kicking the newborn baby. When it gets tired of being kicked, it gets up and finds it can walk and then run... away from the lions who are always around. It's a severe mercy.
And yes, I've had "friends" like her, which is why I'm so strong about this now - I got tired of people being dependents when they weren't under-age children.
In your shoes, I'd sit down with her, tell her: " I care about you and am worried about you, and am especially worried that you give no indications that you are going to step up to being an adult and take care of yourself. So, it distresses me to do this, but I'm not going to support you anymore in any way. I won't give you money, pay your way to anything, or do anything you should be doing for yourself. It's not that I don't care, but I haven't been helping you be an adult and enjoy the satisfaction that comes from doing life well. I am your friend but no longer your supporter. You are welcome to come on trips if you can pay your own way, and we'll collect everyone's money before we leave and pay our expenses from that as we go. If you haven't got the money you can't come. If you can't afford to eat, then I guess you'll have to sign up for public assistance. Here's their phone number. I know you know how to get a job. You'll need to find the bus that will get you there. Give me calls and let me know how you're doing. I want to hear your victories but I no longer want to hear you talk about what you don't have. That's your business to make it happen. Here's a cup of coffee and a biscuit for you, and let me tell you about my car that is making a funny noise..."
If she is truly planning on living on your and other's incomes for life, you'll get a flood of excuses at this time. Or tears. Or both. Her childhood is over and you are helping her become an adult. Repeat as needed. If she gets mad, tell her you'll be happy to talk to her when she can be civil, then leave. Don't take any nonsense - she's scrambling to keep her free lunch from going away!
If she tearfully renounces your friendship because you're being so mean and keeps that attitude for some time, it probably means your support was the only thing about you she cherished. There are other people who would love to get a hand up and would appreciate you for it as well as get their lives back again. Check church ministries and rescue missions. God bless you, dear heart. I think you are wonderful. (((Hugs)))
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 6:14:54 PM
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solomonsprayer
Posts: 866
Joined: 8/1/2008
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Hi StrongWisdom,
Your friend sounded like me for a long period of my life (mostly during college and the 2-4 years after that). ....I leached off of my parents for many years while in school and then when my jobs after school were terrible, I also asked them for money. I was also not the most responsible when it came to spending that money either, so there were many things going on. I was both lazy and also kind of raised irresponsibly (by having mom and dad pay for everything and bail me out of any problems without any consequences at all).
I don't know if I am qualified to offer you advice per se, because I was like your friend you speak of, lol. But what I can do is offer my own perspective for what it's worth and how I saw things and what I learned and am still learning....and also what may have been helpful.
One thing I will say, though, is that no matter what I say or what seems to be a good thing to do to help a friend, it would not work at all if your friend happens to be uncooperative and stubborn. We cannot force our good-will on others if they are not open and receptive to it. So with that in mind, I'll just give you my experiences for a reference point.
With me, I was raised in a chaotic household where both of my parents worked all day and night and were never around. I was never given a structured environment where there were chores or responsibilities with benefits and/or consequences. As a result, I kind of grew up spoiled and a bit undisciplined. I had my parents always bailing me out of situations where I did things late or not at all...Money was always used as a quick fix to things rather than actual tough love and learning from mistakes.
As an adult, I carried this into my life with not much care of what I studied or what work I did. I did have passions, but I did not pursue them with the same focus and discipline as others from more structured homes. This lack of discipline and responsibility then bled into my financial life too....I took on a bunch of diffefent jobs - only one of which paid enough to suport myself - and contniued to rack up debt and would be bailed out by my parents all the time.
When I switched jobs and had a lag in employment, I also had them send me money. I borrowed money from friends when I was in deep need and would always return it....But I'm sure they also were worried and annoyed with that. One friend, it took me a year to return the money. 
I had a cuople of friends nicely tell me that I had a problem and I also had one friend kind of give me the tough love speech about benig irresponsible. That tough love friend kicked me aside saying that I was too flakey and irresponsible and it was affecting his life having to worry about me. I took it pretty harshly and actually blamed him for being the one who was having problems. I guess the key there was bad communication. He sort used harsh language and tone without a positive side to it. I suppose if he'd used honest critical comments, but ended in a way that sounded supportive, then I might have responded better. But the way h e approached me and ignored me and sent me critical emails and voice mails was hurtful. It's like he judged me and wanted nothnig to do with me and I was a drag on him.
What finally got me to take better responsibility was when I lost one of my jobs due to lack of responsibility. I saw the consequences of my behavior and attitdue. But even then, it took a while for it to sink in. I was still both in denial and honestly confused even after I got fired that time. I had to really do some hard thinking before I could see whee I went wrong.
One of the unfortunate side efects of benig raised the way that I was was that I honestly didn't know or want to acknowledge I had a problem with responsibility. .....If being irresponsible was all you've ever known, it takes something big sometimes - like a fall - to realize you have that issue.
I was probably very proud too. I probabyl should have seen and accepted all teh criticism here and there that I'd had from others. So part of it was me not benig receptive too.
I think, in retrospect, I'd have liked to have had a caring friend patiently tell me they were concerned and ask if I'd struggled in this area and perhaps encourage me and give me lovnig advice. I had people give me criticism here and there, but I think most of them didn't want to spend thte time or effort to work with me and probably saw it as not their business or that I was too proud or perhaps it was not that big of a deal....I'm not sure.
My only suggestion would be to love your friend and as much as he/ or she is open to receiving criticism and help and support, then you can give it to them. If they are not open to help, then you can still try, but may have to back off and wait and see (and if they are still unreceptive, you have to let it go and let them learn proably).
Just my thoughts. 
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/1/2008 8:06:08 PM
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lea84
Posts: 51
Joined: 3/7/2006
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This is where after reading the book "Boundaries", I have learned so much! I really think reading the book (it's Christian) will help because it teaches us that we can still be caring Christians with a heart who can still set healthy boundaries. I think boundaries is the biggest thing your friend needs right now.
I am sorry to say, but she needs a mother and you cannot be her mother. She needs to grow up and she needs to learn this on her own. It would be one thing if she truly was struggling and applied from job to job to no avail, had medical bills so bad money was getting short, etc...but it seems she believes that as long as you are there to help her out, why not? I know compared to everyone else's advice I seem cold and heartless, but she is an adult...and she's had plenty of opportunity to learn from your good example.
Sometimes we need to let the people we care about hurt themselves a little bit so they have scars to help them learn.
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/2/2008 1:00:31 AM
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StrongWisdom
Posts: 32
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quote:
This is where after reading the book "Boundaries", I have learned so much! I really think reading the book (it's Christian) will help because it teaches us that we can still be caring Christians with a heart who can still set healthy boundaries. I think boundaries is the biggest thing your friend needs right now.
Who is the author of this book?
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/2/2008 1:21:01 AM
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StrongWisdom
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quote:
I am sorry to say, but she needs a mother and you cannot be her mother. She needs to grow up and she needs to learn this on her own.
I briefly mentioned her mother earlier in the first note. They actually stay together and her mom (older in age but vibrant) receives SS check. It helps them get by (rent payment)...but it would be so much better to have two incomes. Her mom wants her to do better too.
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This is raising your hair because you wouldn't live this way - you'd immediately rustle up a job and start living within your means. She's different. She's willing to let others rescue her... and then there's next month's bills. And the month after that. She's not thinking ahead because someone else will catch her and save her every time.
I think I must of painted a rather grim picture. My friend is not one that calls me for money or constantly ask for help. I learned awhile ago to ignore those calls. It just that if I happen to call and see what's up...she may say (later on in the conversations...or if I ask) that their groceries were low or absent...or that their electric is due. And, trust me, I have not always came to the rescue...they have sat in the "dark" when that bill wasn't paid, and ate the last of what they had...
It's just that I know she can do better. I know things can work out for her. When that holiday grocery shopping incident occurred, I waited to see if she can work things out (get the card to work). She never asked me to help. She put over half the things back...but after she left for awhile to work things out at the ATM while the line grew behind us, I just went ahead and got the items because I wanted her to have a nice holiday. I knew the card probably wouldn't work...
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And it might make you feel good about yourself to help her; ask yourself if that's part of what keeps you doing this (don't tell us).
smiles...honestly, it doesn't make me feel good. i'm not vocal about this to hardly anyone...if my own family knew, they would probably have a fit...but i needed to talk with someone...so i brought it up on this online forum and to a couple other best friends... one friend doesn't even want to talk about it and the other one just complains about the situation
and i feel somewhat not wise about my decisions...when i told one of my best friends about the recent help, she was scolding me over it...so i do keep these things to myself...but after this last scolding, I knew something was really wrong with my approach
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/2/2008 1:41:25 AM
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StrongWisdom
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I have to say that I am loving this advice from everyone! If I don't get a chance to reply to your comment, know that I have read everything...and really trying to see how I can start to use this great advice.
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Are you and your friend close friends, or merely strong acquaintances?
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Friendship is a relationship that is based on commonality - the things you have in common, with give and take on both sides. Ministry, on the other hand, is based on one person giving and the other receiving. Is she a friend or a ministry?
Strong acquaintance or ministry? These are two perspectives I had not considered. One of the great things about my friend is that we have great conversations about God, our walk with the Lord...scriptures, different life experiences. We just connect well on that regard. It would be a little undermining to think of her as just an acquaintance, even though we have only known each other 3-4 years. But, I can see how I am treating this as "ministry."
And, the truth is that I love being involved with ministries that help with the poor. Occassionally, I do volunteer. But it seems to be different when you are helping strangers versus your friends. You expect more from your friends, because you would think that they share the same drive and passion in life to succeed...but maybe this is not the case here.
And...to possibly further incriminate myself....I know I have a couple other friends like this (total of 3 now) ...that just don't share the same drive in life...so now this comes back to me. I really love talking and sharing with my friends. I have so much care for them...I don't want to let them go...I just seemed to be going further than they are (career, school)...but I don't want there to be a gap. Why can't they just come up another level too?  I don't want to ask if I need to find new friends...or just weaken my connections with them for awhile 
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/2/2008 2:24:16 AM
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deermousie
Posts: 1944
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StrongWisdom
I think I must of painted a rather grim picture. My friend is not one that calls me for money or constantly ask for help.
No, I got it that you weren't giving her money every weekend; I was doing a broad brushstroke on all the people who were an army to help her while she quietly sat back and let people meet her needs. So her mom does, too. That makes it harder.
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I learned awhile ago to ignore those calls. It just that if I happen to call and see what's up...she may say (later on in the conversations...or if I ask) that their groceries were low or absent...or that their electric is due. And, trust me, I have not always came to the rescue...they have sat in the "dark" when that bill wasn't paid, and ate the last of what they had...
I guess everyone would have to agree to let her go without for it to do any good. You might want to start a mantra for every time she "let's drop" she's missing something, "I guess you need to get a job so you aren't taking away from others who have to pay their bills, too." Or just shorten that to the first eight words.
Here's the problem: She's lazy and I think she's a thief. She doesn't want to do more than she's doing now, and she's happy to live on other people's paychecks that they do work hard for. She's taking away from others what is for their own needs. And she's not a legitimate ministry because there's no gain, physically or spiritually. She's just found an easier way to live than you.
Here's a partial solution: the early Christians in Acts had problems with living together and sharing their wealth, and the elders stated if a person didn't work they didn't get to eat. I'm guessing they came to that because people weren't working but they were eating.
Another partial solution is the concept of the thief stealing no more but working with their hands so they'd have something to share with poor. Your friend is on the wrong side of this verse:
Ephesians 4:28
Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has need.
And a person of honor is going to meet their own needs, not sponge off others and live in sloth. That's a shameful way to live, and I'm guessing this woman has surrounded herself with people "too nice" to tell her she is unhonorable and slothful. Our work ethic comes from Scripture - I haven't got the details on that but could ask an elder if you want. I'm guessing the main part of that is in Proverbs.
Boy, that's slimey to let casually drop that the bills aren't paid. You or I would probably quietly starve or just ask for a loan before we'd hint we needed help, hinting seems dishonest somehow. Maybe because it's so passive. She's passive.
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It's just that I know she can do better.
Pfft. She's thinks she's doing great! She doesn't have to work but she still has a house, food and goes on trips. You and I have to work to pay for those things.
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I knew the card probably wouldn't work...
Do you suppose she knew it wouldn't, either, and she was counting on you paying for stuff after she struggled with it? That would be dishonest, wouldn't it.
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and i feel somewhat not wise about my decisions...when i told one of my best friends about the recent help, she was scolding me over it...so i do keep these things to myself...but after this last scolding, I knew something was really wrong with my approach
Well, I don't think you're doing sin, so it's not worth a scolding. You have the freedom to deal with this any way you want. You may be abetting sloth or maybe it's OK. <shrug> I haven't got any hard Scripture on it as far as your behavior goes. And your friends might not be any righter than you are. You may decide later to do differently, and that's fine. I'm glad you're a kind person who is thinking about what God would have you do. (((Hugs)))
_____________________________
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/4/2008 2:57:50 PM
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StrongWisdom
Posts: 32
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So here is what I decided to do this week:
I decided that I will not talk to this friend this week. No phone calls. This will give her the whole week (business days) to do what she needs to do on her own....monday through friday. I actually haven't heard from her since Sunday, but I do know that she was starting training on a new job this week (hooray for that).
Maybe I'll see how she is doing on Sunday.
The problem is that when I call during the week (or she calls me), I get entangled in her problems. And, although friends are suppose to be there for each other, I realize now more than ever that she has the power to solve them herself.
So, I'm going to do this every week. Not talk to her during the week to give her the space to get things done. Because, maybe by me being there I haven't given her the space to really think over her situation and come to a reality...to take charge.
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/4/2008 3:14:30 PM
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buckifn
Posts: 1867
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So she is an adult living rent free courtesy of her mom? I don't know of any Biblical reference that would say support this woman in any manner...as others pointed out, there are a few who tell us CLEARLY do not feed those that don't work etc.
Giving her anything is enabling her imo..The only thing I would give her is a ride to work.
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/4/2008 3:41:07 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1944
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quote:
ORIGINAL: StrongWisdom
The problem is that when I call during the week (or she calls me), I get entangled in her problems. And, although friends are suppose to be there for each other, I realize now more than ever that she has the power to solve them herself.
Ooh, good points, StrongWisdom.
Do you guys ever talk about your problems, or is it all about her? Friendship versus ministry.
Galatians 6:2
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
I've been told that this verse means we help with burdens beyond the daily necessities, like if a mother is in the hospital, you help take care of her kids while dad is at work until she's able to take over again.
You might want to think about what keeps you in this lop-sided relationship. It doesn't sound healthy. I tend towards this myself, and my mom used to collect "needy" people who presumed upon her with her full cooperation. She may have done it just because she was lonely, but she and my dad did it together.
The key for me was when I finally realized I had to "budget" and prioritize my time, energy and resources so that needy people didn't take up what was legitimately my husband's, child's, and even mine.
_____________________________
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/4/2008 3:55:07 PM
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deermousie
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This illustration might help: there's a retarded man at my church who loves the Lord and lives with his nephew because he can't live alone. His family is really good about including him in everything, and he lives a good life.
He's got enough smarts to use a speed dial, and since he's supported and doesn't have to work, he sits in his recliner and calls everyone he knows ten times a day. No exaggeration. It's rough because several people in our church have businesses in their homes and this guy was always calling and tying up the phone.
It didn't help to tell him to not do that. He always had some important news about his huge family that he knew we were dying to hear.
Finally I told him he could call me once a day at 1 pm, and that was all. And we got phone ID so we know who is calling. If he calls before 1 pm, I don't answer it. If he calls after 2 pm, I don't answer it. If he calls inbetween, I answer it and hear all about his family for 20-30 minutes (really, he's got the family big enough to do this). When I tell him something about me, he says "Uh huh" and changes the subject back to himself. It's the best he can do, and I don't expect more.
So he is "managed" and everyone is happy. I'm not sure what others did about him but apparently they've found solutions, too, and no one has gone bankrupt. He's happy to talk once a day (he really has a wonderful family - I've met some of them. Lovely Christian people) and phones are no longer tied up. It's good to give what we can and protect ourselves from giving more than is needful or helpful.
Besides, he prays for me.
_____________________________
Want to know where a certain word or phrase in the Bible is found? www.biblegateway.com Yay!
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RE: Letting our friends fall or they won't learn - 12/4/2008 5:08:19 PM
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StrongWisdom
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Joined: 11/30/2008
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quote:
Do you guys ever talk about your problems, or is it all about her? | | |
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