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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/20/2008 5:00:48 PM
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micahsixeight
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/13/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Lbolt here is a type sentence of what Odeliya was writing about;
quote:
Is there a OT reference that Paul (Shu'al) may be referencing? I ask this because the "OT" was the scriptures in use in Paul's day.
Notice I put in the bold context. Why in the world would you give the hebrew name of Paul. What are you trying to contrived with this?
The whole Old Testament!
HUH?
_____________________________
"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 1:43:47 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4017
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
At the end of your last post you appear to have indicated that you do agree Paul is talking about greco/roman practices when He used these termsin chapter 1. Not at all. I made it quite clear in my LAST POST that this refers to ALL who become saved....Jew or Gentile....OT or NT. I said the following:
"Paul is very clear what he means by these phrases. It is the "dominion of darkness" from which Christ has redeemed us. And we all were enemies of God performing "evil behavior" prior to salvation.
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:...
Col 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled.
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The OT ceremonial shadows no longer exist for the Christian other than to study and reflect upon what they foreshadowed and the spiritual information concerning salvation found in them. How better to reflect on them than to use them as reminders of the spiritual information concerning salvation found in them as the Scriptures encourage us to do? Yep, that's pretty much what I just said, isn't it?
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Disciples of whom? That would be the members of the church at Ephesus. Why would the Colossians be disciples of the Ephesians. We were discussing Acts 20:1 here - not Colossians. Who is we? That would be you and me.
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You brought up the Colossians passage in Post 3299 and I have been discussing little else with you since. Yep, I brought up Colossians and I brought up Acts 20.
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I could probably switch to Acts 20, but that is not what you and I were discussing. In fact, I was discussing Acts 20 and so were you...the following is part of that discussion between you and me.
I said:
"These are Christians here [in Acts 20:7] - disciples. It says very clearly they came together on the first day of the week, no doubt to celebrate the Lord's Table. The Syriac version actually translates "to break the Eucharist,"
You responded with:
"Disciples of whom? When would Luke say the first day of the week begins?"
To refresh your memory, see POST #3365
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I don't know what you pointed out but a Sunday resurrection is in keeping with Scripture. The Lord's suffering began in Gethsemane on Thursday night and the atonement experience was completed when He resurrected early Sunday morning. Thursday night, Friday night and Saturday night equals three nights. All day Friday, all day Saturday and a partial day Sunday, which is counted as a day, equals three days. So, three days and three nights are involved with the atonement. Mt 12:40 "For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." Since when is Gethsemane the heart of the earth? Since when is "the heart of the earth" the grave?
The Bible does not say that Jesus was in the grave for three days and three nights. The Greek has a perfectly good word for grave, sepulchre or tomb Mnemeion and is not shy about using it; but, noticeably, Christ did not use it here. God uses the "heart of the earth" as a figure of speech indicating the suffering of Christ and the proof it had ended with the resurrection.
Also very significant and quite telling is that when reference is made to the three days, three nights or third day it is always in conjunction with the betrayal and/or suffering Christ endured in Gethsemane. There are about twelve of these passages. For example, the following three:
Matthew 20:18 Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall condemn Him to death, and shall deliver Him to the Gentiles, to mock and to scourge, and to crucify Him, and the third day He shall rise again.
Mark 9:31 For He taught His disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill Him, and after that He is killed, He shall rise the third day.
Matthew 17:22 Jesus said unto them, the Son of man shall be betrayed into the hands of man; and they shall kill Him, and the third day He shall be raised again.
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Sorry, no shortcuts. If I have to prove my points, you will have to do the same.
I have proven my points and with no "shortcuts", seems you take a few of your own, though.
< Message edited by kelman -- 11/21/2008 1:54:40 AM >
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 10:12:33 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
You know, Mr. Sponge, it was never to be about "law" as we think it to be. But God's teaching, instructions and directions for our lives. That would probably be a better definition.
Your post about 1 Peter 4 leaves me with the feeling you are suffering from the same double-minded thinking I did years ago. I could assure you out of one side of my mouth that I was saved by grace for eternity, completely apart from any effort of my own, and that my salvation was absolutely secure, but out of the other side of my mouth express concern about the judgement and whether I was doing all that I was supposed to be doing for God.
For me and others it's all about being 'left behind' at the rapture to be scourged and chastised because of disobedience. That message sometimes left serious doubts about my salvation altogether. There was a very, very popular and convincing argument in the church at that time that Christ would return in 1988 (and yes, in conjunction with the Feasts--first the spring feast, then when that didn't happen, the fall feast). I was very solidly grounded in the scriptures even, at that time, but this was a very powerful (but deceiving) teaching that got a lot of people's attention who were normally unmoved by these kinds of things (myself included).
For you disobedience means not observing the Sabbath, and the Feasts (I presume), and probably other OT worship and procedural stipulations, and being punished by not being allowed to enter into Jerusalem in the age to come for not doing those things. For me and others disobedience meant that we would be 'left behind' for not witnessing, not tithing, not attending church, and all the other various superficial 'works' that many preachers threaten the church with using passages like John 15 (in love of course, lol!). I was not part of a church that did this, but it's influence was all over Christianity at that time and eventually got me thinking.
Because I sincerely wanted to please God, I cried out to him to help me. I was helpless all over again, just like when I came to him at salvation. And this time, also, God was faithful to help me and deliver me from fear of judgement. He began to open the scriptures to me and show me how godly character is the 'work' we are to pursue. And it is that 'work' that relieves the fear of judgement. And it is this love that fulfilled all of the law. If I loved (in the way clearly taught in great length and detail in the NT) I was in fact fulfilling the requirements of all the law. Love is the thing that really counts, not outwardly legislated works, like circumcision.
"...love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. 18There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love." (1 John 4:17-18)
Love is the work of the church that gives us peace about the judgement to come, not the satisfactory performance of outwardly legislated worship, and the various activities of the church. It was amazing how those things (worship and activities) became fruitful and productive and satisfying and unburdensome (now that no judgement is connected to them) when love for others became the goal and expression of my faith. Instead of those things that I thought I had to do to not be punished being the end-all of my relationship with God, they became the tools through which I expressed my love for others. I now began to relate to God the way he wanted me to, through the new way of the Spirit and not the old way of law. Yet this new way still fulfilled the requirements of the law.
As Paul says, it isn't the faith that expresses itself in outward things like circumcision that means anything or counts for anything. It's the faith that finds it's expression and manifestation in love toward others that counts to God and gives us the peace and assurance that we are truly pleasing to God and will be unashamed at the return of Christ.
"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Gal. 5:6)
And in case you still want to think he's talking about what counts toward salvation...
"13Not even those who are circumcised obey the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your flesh. 14May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is a new creation. 16Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God. "
Once a person gets this mindset established the scriptures explode with the true message of what we are to be doing in order to serve God and prepare for the judgement to come. And it is obedience to that message that allows us to enter into the promise of Christ's rest and abundance--our promised land of blessing and comfort and provision.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 10:43:32 AM
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micahsixeight
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/13/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
You know, Mr. Sponge, it was never to be about "law" as we think it to be. But God's teaching, instructions and directions for our lives. That would probably be a better definition.
Once a person gets this mindset established the scriptures explode with the true message of what we are to be doing in order to serve God and prepare for the judgement to come. And it is obedience to that message that allows us to enter into the promise of Christ's rest and abundance--our promised land of blessing and comfort and provision.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
Hey Sponge, have you ever given any thought to what you'll be doing in glory, and how we're to prepare in this life for that future activity?
_____________________________
"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 12:06:57 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1068
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
quote:
ORIGINAL: mcleod
Lbolt here is a type sentence of what Odeliya was writing about;
quote:
Is there a OT reference that Paul (Shu'al) may be referencing? I ask this because the "OT" was the scriptures in use in Paul's day.
Notice I put in the bold context. Why in the world would you give the hebrew name of Paul. What are you trying to contrived with this?
The whole Old Testament!
HUH?
Well Micah, if you will notice that I was making a comment to LBolt. So if you would have read his entire post you would have seen what my last comment was about.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 1:19:13 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
Hey Sponge, have you ever given any thought to what you'll be doing in glory, and how we're to prepare in this life for that future activity?
I know very little what the next life will look like. I'm like Abraham who by faith left his homeland and set a course for a land he knew little about. And like him, I live in the promised land in the tent of my flesh "looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God"--the glorified Body of Christ, the New Jerusalem, the true nation of God's people.
But what I do know is what God has told us to do to while we wait for the redemption of our bodies and how to produce the fruit of the kingdom now. That's what's important right now. Securing your place in the kingdom and producing the fruit and increase of that kingdom. Fruit that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you do indeed have a place in that kingdom (fruitless branches will be burned in the fire). Our responsiblity is to show ourselves to be genuinely grafted into the life-giving vine, and as a result bear fruit--fruit that lasts.
"3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things (act out the qualities listed above), you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:3-11)
I suspect we'll continue to walk in the same divine nature there that we walk in here, but in complete perfection, because we will see him as he is and not through a 'glass darkly' (or however the KJV says it). To whatever extent or degree you have 'seen' the Lord Jesus in this life is the extent to which you look like him in this life.
"...he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. (1 John 4:5-6)
"For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God (has seen him) must also love his brother (as proof that he has seen him)." (1 John 4:20) (paranthesis mine)
Our duty is to 'make our calling election sure' by acting out the qualities of the Spirit as plainly explained in the NT. That's how we are to prepare for the life to come.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 1:19:25 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 999
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Thank's for the concern, SB. I've said this before you have a heart of gold...where as I don't agree with you overall premise, I appreciate you geniune concern for myself and others. My intent was to say that I desire to be walking as I should be walking as well as others. Faith and works go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. Our loving Abba has laid out the path for us through His teachings and instructions. Jesus came the first time to redeem us from the curse of disobeying Him and walking contrary to His Ways.
I do not want to presume that I'm flawless and walk in a sense of pride and arrogance as if I got it all together. I am not questioning my salvation. I do not ascribe to the pretrib rapture theology. I am not "working" to get in, I chose to willingly obey His precepts as He gives me understanding of them. Have you ever had a chance to read up on Bishop Marcion's beliefs? He was very influential before and after he was regarded as a heretic. If one was to look at what he believed and taught you will find an interesting parallel in today's mainstream Christianity with regard to his anti-Jewish/ antinomian theology.
Where as Christianity rejects his theology, I find subtle similar sentiments in the mindset of the Church today.
Like I said before we all need to check our own selves, research and study the word of God, make any necessary changes as the Holy Spirit shines the light and continue to walk on toward maturity. We must know that Abba Yah has our best interest at heart. I've been, for almost a year proving with scripture after scripture that the Sabbath is for us today, to be enjoyed and adhered to. That it is a mark of a sanctified life. That it is not about legalism and dogma imposed upon us by tradition. Individuals, when presented with plain Scripture from both Testament, sought to spiritualize, allegorize and basically justify why there is no Sabbath. I've provided quotes from individuals such as Martin Luther, Cardinal Gibbons, DL Moody, individuals regarded as great church leaders, who either admitted that the Sabbath was changed by the RCC and/or stated that it was still in effect today and will be for eternity. Individuals still refute with straw-man arguments from Scripture distortation, without using other creditable sources to possible bolster one's argument. I've shown that the Master refuted rabbinical Torah that superseceded the writings of the first five books of the Bible in the lives of some of the religious leaders of His time. That when it appeared that He broke the Sabbath it was in actually the Oral Law that He broke.
All's I can say is...Study, research, pray and obey continuosly. Research...review history. Read the words of Yahshua and His actions...because actions speak louder, if you can produce Scripture where the Master disregarded the Sabbath and taught His disciples to disregard the Sabbath, I will entertain your line of thinking. However if you can't and you find that Yahshua does indeed teach and observe Sabbath...then consider your ways.
I'm saddened that your early walk was marked by such legalist, burdensome yoke you placed upon yourself due to a lack of understanding of the Scriptures, though in all likelihood was no fault of your own. The same is true with most Bible teaching. I'm finding, as confirmed by a Time magazine article dealing with the 10 ideas that is shaping the world as we know it, I believe it is March 27, 2007 edition, that studying the Bible from Hebraically is a paradigm that is transforming Christianity. It's a move of God! It's taking root in seminaries and institutions of higher learning. How much of it is applied only time will tell.
From what I've experienced it's been a life changing, liberating experience. I have no intentions on going back, except to help others experience what I'm experiencing.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 11/22/2008 9:05:34 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 1:32:45 PM
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micahsixeight
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/13/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
Hey Sponge, have you ever given any thought to what you'll be doing in glory, and how we're to prepare in this life for that future activity?
I know very little what the next life will look like. I'm like Abraham who by faith left his homeland and set a course for a land he knew little about. And like him, I live in the promised land in the tent of my flesh "looking forward to the city with foundations, whose architect and builder is God"--the glorified Body of Christ, the New Jerusalem, the true nation of God's people.
But what I do know is what God has told us to do to while we wait for the redemption of our bodies and how to produce the fruit of the kingdom now. That's what's important right now. Securing your place in the kingdom and producing the fruit and increase of that kingdom. Fruit that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that you do indeed have a place in that kingdom (fruitless branches will be burned in the fire). Our responsiblity is to show ourselves to be genuinely grafted into the life-giving vine, and as a result bear fruit--fruit that lasts.
"3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
5For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.
10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things (act out the qualities listed above), you will never fall, 11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:3-11)
I suspect we'll continue to walk in the same divine nature there that we walk in here, but in complete perfection, because we will see him as he is and not through a 'glass darkly' (or however the KJV says it). To whatever extent or degree you have 'seen' the Lord Jesus in this life is the extent to which you look like him in this life.
"...he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. (1 John 4:5-6)
"For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God (has seen him) must also love his brother (as proof that he has seen him)." (1 John 4:20) (paranthesis mine)
Our duty is to 'make our calling election sure' by acting out the qualities of the Spirit as plainly explained in the NT. That's how we are to prepare for the life to come.
Well, in the next life we'll be worshiping; something we should prepare to do properly in this life in addition to living in obediene to the 2nd table.
_____________________________
"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 5:17:01 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2485
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
I have gone out of my way to avoid using words that you finds offensive, but you choose to criticize me when talking to other people. Also, in doing that you choose to group me with people with whom I disagree on several issues. At best attribution to someone one agrees with may have some value in adding credability to ones argument. However, I believe it is of little value to find fault with people one is not talking to. If you have a problem with me, tell me about it and we can discuss it. Otherwise, please try to focus on the topic.
I am sorry if I have not been clear. In previous posts I have stated that I do not believe in keeping the "hard and fast letter". Also, I have stated that anyone who keeps Shabbat, while rejecting Adonai's Spirit is not keeping it at all. I have looked at context both historical and grammatical, sought the council of others as well as Adonai Himself. For this I have also been accused of being hypocritical. Hypocracy cuts both ways. There are many who not only do not believe in keeping Shabbat, but activily oppose it, while at the same time taking Scriptures out of context to lay a burden on those who do keep Shabbat that they themselves refuse to accept.
You say a majority of the religiuos people you know rely on Torah observance to relate to God. I personally know very few that even know Torah let alone rely on it. The majority of the people I know justify all kinds of behavior by misquoting passages like, "judge not, lest you be not judged" or say, "I am following the spirit of the law". These people seem to not distinguish between obeying their own spirit and obeying the Spirit of Adonai. That I will never agree with.
Friend, i sincerely apologize if I did offend you, i surely didnt mean to. I appreciate your efforts to be pleasing and understandable in your posts, i truly do.
Not that i tried to group you with other fellows - i know you have disagreements with them, but rather i addressed the issue that seem to bother me. I specifically said it seems, seemingly to leave room for possibility i am mistaken about your views.
Lets try to maybe summarize what i think we agree/disagree on re: the issue, if you dont mind.So, firstly :
I know we both agree that obedience to any laws is only good and pleasing to God as long as people are doing it are true believers, not doing it as hypocrites. Yes or No?
I asked quite a few times before, never received an answer from you- Do you agree that one can obey Torah laws in Letter not in Spirit? The thing is that nobody, but God can see the heart of a person.
So outwardly ( based on outward Sabbath keeping, Feasts, worship practices, etc.) it might appear that 2 people are both obedient but only one is a true believer and another is a hypocrite. Do you agree with this possibility?
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/21/2008 7:05:56 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Lets try to maybe summarize what i think we agree/disagree on re: the issue, if you dont mind.So, firstly :
I know we both agree that obedience to any laws is only good and pleasing to God as long as people are doing it are true believers, not doing it as hypocrites. Yes or No?
There is more involved than hypocracy. If Adonai wishes us to do something and we do not do it, that is wrong regardless. Anyone who says that Adonai requires something, yet does not do it themselves is wrong and a hypocrite. Anyone who says that one need not do something, yet requires those who do to do so based on their standards may not be wrong with regard to the thing discussed, but they are guilty of hypocracy. For example I have no right to tell a snake handler how one should handle a snake, because I do not believe the Scriptures teach that. I could point out aparent inconsistances in arguments related to snakehandling or state what I would do if I were a snakehandler. However, I can not say that snakes must be handled in such and such a manner. In short, hypocracy can not justify bad behavior, but it does taint good behavior.
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I asked quite a few times before, never received an answer from you- Do you agree that one can obey Torah laws in Letter not in Spirit?
Let me take this one sentence at a time because it appears to ramble a little.
In short I do believe one can do things according to the instructions written in the translations of the Scriptures and still not be pleasing to Adaoni. That includes all of the Scriptures. What is interesting is that some who question observing "the letter" are very literal when it comes to the epistles. That is why don't go too far in discussing "the letter".
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The thing is that nobody, but God can see the heart of a person.
This is why one can not make judgements regarding ones salvation. One can only look at one's words and behavior, and act accordingly.
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So outwardly ( based on outward Sabbath keeping, Feasts, worship practices, etc.) it might appear that 2 people are both obedient but only one is a true believer and another is a hypocrite. Do you agree with this possibility?
Yes, that is possible, just as is possible for two who profess to living in the spirit, loving their neighbor, holding certain doctrinal beliefs, etc. We can be fooled by one's words and outward behavior. However, apart from direct revelation, that is all we have to go on.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 11/21/2008 7:19:44 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 8:29:14 PM
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micahsixeight
Posts: 75
Joined: 10/13/2008
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
quote:
SpongeBlog
Is this an accurate representation of your doctrine of the 4th C ?
Where did this come from? This is not a quote that belongs to me.
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
4th C is not part of the moral law, only a sign that pointed to Christ’s fulfillment of the law giving Christians ‘rest’ from the penalty and works of the law.
No. It is also an illustration of how we are to 'rest' from our evil works of sin. And for the unregenerate people of the OT who don't have the Holy Spirit it has it's value in legislating some element of their relationship with God. A job now done much more effectively by the Holy Spirit, not the written code, in the New Covenant.
If the people of the OT didn't have the HS, how do you interpret what Jesus said to Nicodemus in Jn. 3:5?
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
The first table of the law is subsumed under the second table which is the moral law. Christians are no longer obligated to the first table.
Yes we are, but our obligation to the first table finds it's most useful and meaningful expression in the performance of the second table of the big 10. Did you know Paul says things like greed are idolatry? To not be greedy, which robs others of their well-being ('love does no harm to it's neighbor') fulfills the lawful requirement for not worshiping idols. See how it works? Until we all worship God in this infinately higher and more meaningful way we have fallen far, far short of what it really means to worship God the way he wants us to.
So the 2nd table is now the new 1st table as far as worship is concerned? And Christians are now able to obey the 2nd table because they have the HS?
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
4th C is abrogated because it is a ceremonial law governing worship.
It is no longer literally binding. It finds it's fulfillment (the satisfactory keeping of) in the new way of the Spirit, like circumcision and animal sacrifice for sin. But like both of those, you are free to observe a literal Sabbath if you want. Unfortunately, my experience has shown that many people who do that don't fulfill it's much more meaningful spiritual application. Or for that matter even know what that more meaningful spiritual applicaiton is.
So Christians are free to continue making animal sacrifices if they so desire? Wouldn't this be rather insulting to Christ and His 'once for all' sacrifice?
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"But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.' -Jesus, Rev. 2: 4
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/22/2008 9:20:26 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
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micahsixeight:
Though I don't argee with a lot of what you say, you clearly have a knack for cut through all of the flack and focusing on the irony in other peoples positions.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 11:23:17 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
quote:
...And for the unregenerate people of the OT who don't have the Holy Spirit it has it's value in legislating some element of their relationship with God. A job now done much more effectively by the Holy Spirit, not the written code, in the New Covenant.
If the people of the OT didn't have the HS, how do you interpret what Jesus said to Nicodemus in Jn. 3:5?
They did not have the abiding Holy Spirit. Except for a few priveleged and select people in the OT, being born again in this life is a New Covenant experience, not an old covenant one. The OT relationship with God through the law was obviiously stunted and inferior to what we enjoy today because God found need to send the Holy Spirit to his people in a new and different and more effective way that the law did not allow.
If you want to examine this more you can start by offering your explanation of how and why the scriptures speak of the necessity of a new and better relationship between us and God that would come with the New Covenant. It is obviously not the same relationship as under the OT (except for the few chosen by grace for our example). And one thing's for sure according to Paul--this better relationship does not come by observance of OT worship laws (Gal. 3:5). Thank God for the New Covenant.
quote:
ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
quote:
...the first table finds it's most useful and meaningful expression in the performance of the second table of the big 10. Did you know Paul says things like greed are idolatry? To not be greedy, which robs others of their well-being ('love does no harm to it's neighbor') fulfills the lawful requirement for not worshiping idols. See how it works? Until we all worship God in this infinately higher and more meaningful way we have fallen far, far short of what it really means to worship God the way he wants us to.
So the 2nd table is now the new 1st table as far as worship is concerned?
Not exclusively. You won't find me bowing down to a statue of Buddha. How you can spiritualize that, I don't know. But as I said, the first table finds it's most meaningful and useful expression in the keeping of the second table. Don't you know that God will reject your first table observance if you do not keep the second table first? What should that be telling you about what's more important to God? If I'm careful to not bow down to a Buddha, but I harm other people, will my obedience to a law of worship somehow make it all okay between me and God???? Hardly!
"...anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
23"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift." (Matt. 5:22-24)
See, somethings are just way more important than how we do church, or if we even do it all. This is why it's so important that people who depend on the externals of worship (rely on the flesh as the measure of what it means to please God) to know the truth and avoid the embarrassment and shame of a fruitless life when the master returns. And so that they enter into the life that is truly life in this age! You do want to have something to show him when he comes back, right? How you did church simply is not one of the works God will be looking for on that Day. Love for him that found expression in godly character and love to others is what will be rewarded and earn the praise of God. Because, "...anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18).
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
...And Christians are now able to obey the 2nd table because they have the HS?
Most definately. I'm confident that we don't have any contention about this whatsoever.
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
4th C is abrogated because it is a ceremonial law governing worship.
No. It is fulfilled (not abolished as we understand abolish) in a new and more meaningful way. You may continue in the old way if you want, but it has no bearing whatsoever on your position or favor with God. But remember, if you do not keep it in it's new and more meaningful way first, God is not interested in the worship you offer up in the framework of the old way of a legislated day and method.
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ORIGINAL: micahsixeight
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ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
It is no longer literally binding. It finds it's fulfillment (the satisfactory keeping of) in the new way of the Spirit, like circumcision and animal sacrifice for sin. But like both of those, you are free to observe a literal Sabbath if you want....
So Christians are free to continue making animal sacrifices if they so desire? Wouldn't this be rather insulting to Christ and His 'once for all' sacrifice?
For sin it would be. I was not careful to explain I was only talking about animal sacrifices not connected with atonement for sin. The formerly legislated time and method of worship of animal sacrifice for sin in the supposedly unchanging law, and spoken by the supposedly unchanging voice of God is now obsolete according to the writer of Hebrews (who penned that while the Temple was still standing).
You are free to make animal sacrifices for thanksgiving, or whatever. We kind of do that already when we meet around mom's pot roast after church. And many, many people will be giving thanks through the sacrifice of ol' Tom Turkey later this week. But as you can see, it's hardly something that requires something like an old covenant set of times and stipulations to do that now that each of us worships through the Holy Spirit and everything we do and say, 24/7, is to be our acceptable worship. That worship is what counts with God.
The point of all this is to show it's not so terribly unreasonable that the Sabbath law has also now found it's satisfactory fulfillment in a 'not to the letter of the law' way through the work of Christ. His work is what opened up the door for the Holy Spirit to come into the world and make worship a matter of the heart and not just a list of do's and don'ts and places that only governed our bodies and the elemental things of the world and not our spirits.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 12:26:50 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
So outwardly ( based on outward Sabbath keeping, Feasts, worship practices, etc.) it might appear that 2 people are both obedient but only one is a true believer and another is a hypocrite. Do you agree with this possibility?
Yes, that is possible, just as is possible for two who profess to living in the spirit, loving their neighbor, holding certain doctrinal beliefs, etc. We can be fooled by one's words and outward behavior. However, apart from direct revelation, that is all we have to go on.
That's why circumcision is such a good illustration for the mark of being in covenant with God. It's an inward change that is most evident to the person himself. The heart is where the unseen mark of God is made and from whence life issues forth for others to see. It's a very meaningful analogy.
The Bible tells us to make our 'calling and election sure', not someone else's. Our obligation is to show ourselves as being truly born-again by walking in the fruit of the Spirit and loving others. But the Bible also tells us we can tell those who truly belong to God by the fruit that they bear (not what church they go to).
You must understand what love is to be able to identify the real thing in another person. Love is the desire to render unconditional service to others apart from any other agenda but to please God and see that people are not harmed, even helped. As you grow in the character of God yourself you'll be able to identify it easier in other people--mainly for your protection, not so you can go around judging people..."Watch out for false prophets...(B)y their fruit you will recognize them" (Matt. 7:15-16).
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/23/2008 2:39:34 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...Faith and works go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. Our loving Abba has laid out the path for us through His teachings and instructions. Jesus came the first time to redeem us from the curse of disobeying Him and walking contrary to His Ways.
I agree completely. But the expression of faith that God is looking for from us that actually means anything and proves our faith is love, not worship techniques and beliefs. And love finds it's expression in actions towards others, not just warm fuzzy feelings and intentions.
"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." (Galatians 5:6)
"14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." (James 2:14-17)
"17If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him? 18Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth. 19This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence." (1 John 3:17-19)
"13Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15Such "wisdom" does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.
17But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (James 3:13-18)
"10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God.
12This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else." (2 Corinthians 9:10-13)
Two things are very clear from these passages. Real saving faith is seen in deeds of active love. And it is this faith, that expresses itself in active deeds of love, that constitutes the 'harvest of our righteousness'--the fruit, the increase, the garden of growth that we will hand over to Christ on that Day.
Active deeds of love is the righteousness that God will call us to account for. He's given us the seeds of the kingdom, and we have the obligation to bring those seeds, that knowledge of the kingdom, to fruition. I just don't see where the requirements of the literal Sabbath fit into that picture. Especially as a replacement for what I just shared. If a person relies on outward works of worship as the works of righteousness that will be handed to God they will be sorely dissappointed on that Day.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
...I am not "working" to get in...
And I sincerely believe that. And hopefully, like all of us should be, you are 'working' to please God and want to have godly works of faith to show him now that you belong to him. I just think you've missed it if Sabbath keeping (or any other OT worship stipulation) is the end-all of what it means to labor and produce the fruit of the kingdom for God.
There's too much NT evidence to prove it's not about how we do church. Those are the 'beggerly' (worthless, poor, valueless) principles that mean nothing and count for nothing. They have little to no value in pleasing God. It's about the worship, not the outward context of a church in which it's offered up, no matter how legislated that context used to be in the OT. God is looking for worship that goes up in the context of love for others, which is seen in the deeds and characteristics of the Spirit--far and above any external law of worship technique.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
Have you ever had a chance to read up on Bishop Marcion's beliefs? He was very influential before and after he was regarded as a heretic. If one was to look at what he believed and taught you will find an interesting parallel in today's mainstream Christianity with regard to his anti-Jewish/ antinomian theology.
No I haven't, but I will google Marcion and see what comes up. There is nothing anti-Jewish or antinomian about what I blieve. Well, I'll amend that to say there is clearly some laws we don't have to keep anymore (as you'll agree). My whole heart's desire is to fulfill the intent and purpose of the law which is to be a Christ-like, godly person, which means loving others.
This isn't anti-Jewish in the least. I'm like a lot of christians. I'm thrilled and I tingle all over when I meet a real Jew (even after I find out they're just like me and you). And one of the most moving passages in scripture for me is Psalm 19:7-13. But it's important to understand it in the additional revelation that has come to us in the person of Jesus Christ and the New Covenant. Anti-Jewish and anti-law? Not me brother.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
...we all need to check our own selves, research and study the word of God, make any necessary changes as the Holy Spirit shines the light and continue to walk on toward maturity.
I'm glad you brought this up. Obviously, you feel proper worship is the measure of spiritual maturity in a person (correct me if I'm wrong). If you do a NT study on maturity you'll see immaturity is measured by fleshly things like jealousy and quarreling and factions (1 Cor. 3:1-4) . And that the elementary teachings of the faith are for the immature, while the teaching about righteousness (distinguishing good from evil) is for the mature (Heb. 5:11-14). So is it any surprise, then, that the behavior of immature believers often accompanies the teachings for immature believers learning the basics of the faith (Heb. 6:1-2)?
The point is, character is the measure of maturing. That is the measure of our learning and maturity, and our wisdom, and our 'knowing'. It's dead wrong to think a person is mature because they know what day to worship on and what to do (or not to do) on that day. As we see in the illustration of the growing seed, it is the fruit that comes last and which marks the maturity of a planting. It's no different with us, the plantings of God. When we were born again we became true stalks of wheat. The mark of maturity of a stalk of wheat is the fruit it yields and which is harvested to the pleasure of the master of the harvest.
"...This is what the kingdom of God is like. A man scatters seed on the ground. 27Night and day, whether he sleeps or gets up, the seed sprouts and grows, though he does not know how. 28All by itself the soil produces grain—first the stalk, then the head, then the full kernel in the head. 29As soon as the grain is ripe, he puts the sickle to it, because the harvest has come." (Mark 4:26-29)
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
...I'm saddened that your early walk was marked by such legalist, burdensome yoke you placed upon yourself due to a lack of understanding of the Scriptures, though in all likelihood was no fault of your own. The same is true with most Bible teaching.
I did not place it on myself. Like so many other misguided doctrines and beliefs, it was imposed on the church by people who have no wisdom and knowledge of what it means to serve God and prepare for the resurrection. I have found the knowledge and wisdom of love to be the premier discerner of the scriptures. Love is what it means to be truly guided and taught by the Spirit.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
...I'm finding, as confirmed by a Time magazine article dealing with the 10 ideas that is shaping the world as we know it, I believe it is March 27, 2007 edition, that studying the Bible from Hebraically is a paradigm that is transforming Christianity. It's a move of God! It's taking root in seminaries and institutions of higher learning. How much of it is applied only time will tell.
The exact same thing can be said about homosexuality in the church. Popularity and acceptance do not prove something is a move of God in the least.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...From what I've experienced it's been a life changing, liberating experience. I have no intentions on going back, except to help others experience what I'm experiencing.
I'm not trying to get you to stop worshiping the way you feel compelled to. What I am trying to do is get you to understand what God has really saved us to do and to stop fueling the devastating division and contention of separating ourselves over who really has the right way to do church.
Your denomination is no different than the Baptists, and the Presbyterians, and the charismatics, and the Catholics, and every other denomination out there. You're all sure you have nailed the beliefs and methods and techniques of worship that God wants us to perform in order to please him. It's a meaningless, destructive work that counts for nothing in the eyes of God. He's made it clear what really pleases him. And that message cuts across all denominations and brings us into the unity that he intends for us.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 11/23/2008 2:47:04 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/25/2008 3:01:11 AM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1668
Joined: 11/8/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
So outwardly ( based on outward Sabbath keeping, Feasts, worship practices, etc.) it might appear that 2 people are both obedient but only one is a true believer and another is a hypocrite. Do you agree with this possibility?
Yes, that is possible, just as is possible for two who profess to living in the spirit, loving their neighbor, holding certain doctrinal beliefs, etc. We can be fooled by one's words and outward behavior. However, apart from direct revelation, that is all we have to go on.
That's why circumcision is such a good illustration for the mark of being in covenant with God. It's an inward change that is most evident to the person himself. The heart is where the unseen mark of God is made and from whence life issues forth for others to see. It's a very meaningful analogy.
The Bible tells us to make our 'calling and election sure', not someone else's. Our obligation is to show ourselves as being truly born-again by walking in the fruit of the Spirit and loving others. But the Bible also tells us we can tell those who truly belong to God by the fruit that they bear (not what church they go to).
You must understand what love is to be able to identify the real thing in another person. Love is the desire to render unconditional service to others apart from any other agenda but to please God and see that people are not harmed, even helped. As you grow in the character of God yourself you'll be able to identify it easier in other people--mainly for your protection, not so you can go around judging people..."Watch out for false prophets...(B)y their fruit you will recognize them" (Matt. 7:15-16).
That last paragraph sounds like a direct judgement to me. Could you please point out where I might have made a judgement regarding anyone in the post you quoted?
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 11/25/2008 8:38:22 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 937
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
...You must understand what love is to be able to identify the real thing in another person. Love is the desire to render unconditional service to others apart from any other agenda but to please God and see that people are not harmed, even helped. As you grow in the character of God yourself you'll be able to identify it easier in other people--mainly for your protection, not so you can go around judging people..."Watch out for false prophets...(B)y their fruit you will recognize them" (Matt. 7:15-16).
That last paragraph sounds like a direct judgement to me. Could you please point out where I might have made a judgement regarding anyone in the post you quoted?
You didn't. The paragraph was written with all christians in mind, growing and maturing in their faith as evidenced by acts of love--the righteous works of our faith. The visible harvest of the righteousness we've been given in Christ that we give back to God.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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