RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
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[Poll]
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How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and how many believe in a post trib.
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| Pre-Trib |
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| Post-trib |
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| Mid-trib |
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Total Votes : 74
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(last vote on : 1/6/2009 7:44:26 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/5/2007 12:25:14 PM
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chalkstc
Posts: 416
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ZAR,
quote:
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
SHortly. As in soon.
The events in the Revelation aren't about the end times, but started soon after John wrote the book.
Shortly is not soon, but speedily or swiftly. When the event is ready on God's Clock, they will speedily transpire.
And the book is about endtimes for it is prophecy. It was in no way fulfilled in the first century.
"Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give to every man according to his work"
Are you telling us that He came in the first century as do the Full Preterists? Are you one?
As to the rest of your refute.....................Nada!
Frankie
_____________________________
Prov 27:17 iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/5/2007 1:23:48 PM
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ZAROVE
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quote:
Shortly is not soon, but speedily or swiftly. When the event is ready on God's Clock, they will speedily transpire.
That isn't what the text says, and there is no reaosn to think the text doens't mean the events will happen soon ater the writting of the text.
Your intepretation seems to be based on an assertion, and designed to support an assumption that the book was all about the End Times.
But evidence you did not present.
quote:
And the book is about endtimes for it is prophecy. It was in no way fulfilled in the first century.
Not all Prophecy is about the End Times. In fact, not all Prophecy is even of the future relative to its writting. Much of Isaiah was social COmmentary for its day and age, for example, and the same can be said of Jeremiah, and some of the Minor prophets.
Even when Prophecy is about the future, it doesn't Automaticlaly mean its about the End Times.
And again, your asserting, not proving.
quote:
"Behold I come quickly and my reward is with me to give to every man according to his work"
Are you telling us that He came in the first century as do the Full Preterists? Are you one?
He also said "Lo I am with you always, even to the end of the world".
The verse speaks of our reward for our Faithfulness. Thus, those of us who endure will gain our reward after these trials.
It's a general pronouncement that mirrors even 1 Peter which says the same thing, that the Lord renders unto all of us according to our works.
Its perpetual.
quote:
As to the rest of your refute.....................Nada!
Why? Becuase you said so?
I didn't even refute anything, really, all I did was explain what I think the verses mean, and offered you the explanation, and htis after you asked me to.
Harldy a refutation.
And your refutation of my words doesn't prove I am wrong.
< Message edited by ZAROVE -- 11/5/2007 1:43:47 PM >
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/6/2007 8:55:58 AM
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chalkstc
Posts: 416
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Zar,
quote:
Even when Prophecy is about the future, it doesn't Automaticlaly mean its about the End Times.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter ;KJV
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV
Has He Come yet?
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly : blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
KJV
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly ; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
KJV
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly . Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
KJV
NT:5035
tachu
quickly, speedily (without delay): Matt 5:25
(from Thayer's Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
NT:5035
1. tachu NT:5035, the neuter of tachus, "swift, quick," signifies "quickly," Matt 5:25; 28:7,8; Mark 9:39, RV (KJV, "lightly"); Luke 15:22; John 11:29; Rev 2:16 v. 5 in some mss.; 3:11; 11:14; 22:7,12,20. See LIGHTLY.
(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright (c)1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers)
Tell me, is the SC of Christ still FUTURE in your view? It's still future in the Revelation. It did not happen in the first Century. The book itself is prophecy as Jesus says and it is to all the Churches, not just the first century seven mentioned.
"With us always" from Mat 28 is before the Coming and is a spiritual presence. But He adds....."till the END of the AGE". Then He is with us physically and we are with Him to rule and reign for 1000 years till the GWT judgment. Then New Heavens and the NE will be complete where only righteousness dwells.
Frankie
_____________________________
Prov 27:17 iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/6/2007 10:33:58 AM
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ZAROVE
Posts: 27
Joined: 10/24/2007
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quote:
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter ;KJV
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
KJV
Has He Come yet?
Yes and no. Jesus sits in power andglory on the Throne of David,and has appeared aroudn the globe inthe formof his teachings.
But the SecondComing which is on Judgement day has not occured.
quote:
Tell me, is the SC of Christ still FUTURE in your view?
Yes. I simply reject the Rapture theology,and the idea of a Great Tribulairon period of seven years,and the riegn of Anti-Chrust,andafter that a physical1000 year ruleof CHrust oin Earth.
Instead I say Jeuss will come again,asecond time,once and only,and judge the world.
Basiclaly,Jeuss'ssecondCOming ison Judgement day,and it will also be the last day.
quote:
It's still future in the Revelation. It did not happen in the first Century. The book itself is prophecy as Jesus says and it is to all the Churches, not just the first century seven mentioned.
But you don't even seem to concern yourslef with how I approach the book fo Revelaiton and just assert yourview is right.
Breanne askedme"What if yourwrong?" well, what if your wrong,Chalk?
You don't even seem to consider the possibility that another Interpretaiton could be correct. In fact, youdon't even consider that those who disagree with your view coudlposisbley have valid reasonfor beleivign their view.
quote:
"With us always" from Mat 28 is before the Coming and is a spiritual presence. But He adds....."till the END of the AGE". Then He is with us physically and we are with Him to rule and reign for 1000 years till the GWT judgment. Then New Heavens and the NE will be complete where only righteousness dwells.
THis is editorialising again. You haven't shown any valid reason why I shouldacceptthis view, but instead simply asserted that this is what the Book of Revelation says, and assertedthat I am wrong.
Noneof which disproves my Amillineal Stance.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/6/2007 6:49:42 PM
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bob97
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From: Kansas
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quote:
What if your wrong and therre is no Rapture or Seven Year Tribulation? What if your wrogn in what you think and beleive?
If I'm wrong it will never be an issue...I'll just wake up being with Christ.
If your wrong, you're in for a big surprise and a rather abrupt awaking.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/6/2007 7:52:41 PM
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ZAROVE
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Lets look a tthe ramificatiosn if I am wrong.
To my knowledge, ones beelif about the End Times is not considered crucial to oens Salvaiton, thereofre, peopel can disagree on when the Rapture will hit or if it will ever hit, and still expeirnce the sme things.
So, the way I see it, I f I am wrong, and there is a Rapture, the followign Scenarios play out.
1: The Pre-Tribulatin Rapture:
I, as a Christian, am Raptured, and ascent to be wih the Lord Jesus Christ before the Seven Year Tribulation.
2: Mid-Tribulaiton Rapture:
The Tribulaiton period hits, th Anti-Christ Reigns, and, I have to endure it for 3 and 1/2 years. After this tiem I am Raptured along with the rest of the Christians.
3: Post Tribulation Rapture:
I endure the enture Seven Year Tribulation period, alogn wiht everyone else. I am then Raptured to be the wthe Lord Jesus Christ after it ends.
So, how does htis effect me differently form you?
SIcne if Im rigth and your wrong, then we both end up beign judge dby Christ on Judgement day.
If Im wrogn and your right, we still bot end up beign raptured.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/7/2007 1:04:58 AM
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ae10u
Posts: 153
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ZAROVE
Lets look a the ramificatiosn if I am wrong...
So, how does htis effect me differently form you?
Zarove
Putting aside when the rapture occurs, there is a factor that I believe most folks are conveniently forgetting.
Even before the Tribulation, the Mark of the Beast may begin to be enforced. So, I believe that before the Rapture, whenever that is, pressure might be brought to bear on Christians by civic authorities, to accept the mark in order to buy or sell. It might only be later that the Man of Sin reveals his true evil nature and begin the Tribulation of the Saints.
I think we always have to be mentally prepared to resist the Mark of the Beast - and folks expecting to be raptured away before this decision has to be made - may be caught unawares.
In fact, for some of us who happen to be living in the wrong place (Satan's seat), we may have to do the following...
Luke 17:31-32 "In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. 32 Remember Lot's wife. "
Steven
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/7/2007 10:41:25 AM
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chalkstc
Posts: 416
Joined: 5/13/2005
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Zar,
quote:
Yes and no. Jesus sits in power andglory on the Throne of David,and has appeared aroudn the globe inthe formof his teachings.
I am amazed at how many texts you ignore. Though you believe in the future SC, you still say Jesus is on his Throne when the scriptures say He is seated at the right hand of the father till all His enemies have become His footstool.
Then and only then does He sit on His own throne as Revelation states, and that happens when He Returns.
Tell me...................are all His enemies His footstool now? Is the last enemy.............death done away with? And I don't mean the new birth only for believers here. Check the end of the Rev when it says "there is NO MORE DEATH".
Isa 9 gives us a glimpse of past and future history..........................
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Note: "a child is born"..........past tense. A son is given........the Cross, also past tense. But the government upon His Shoulders is still to Come at His SC.
It is one thing to say you believe in the SC, but another to leave out all that leads up to that up
to that Coming and what happens at that Coming. It is not simply judgment day, but a setting up His earthly reign.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV
The 7th verse confirms what I stated in the 6th.
Read Dan 2 and see when the "stone from the mountain cut out without hands" is set up for the chrono of Christ's earthly kingdom at His SC.
You live in a symbolic and figurative world by your view of Scripture imo.
Yes, there is symbolic and figurative language used. But the symbol and the figures point to the True just as the types and shadows of the OT pointed to Christ's first Coming.
I'll go no farther till you try to refute the above.
YBIC,
Frankie
PS if you want to start a thread so we don't continue to be off topic, go for it.
_____________________________
Prov 27:17 iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/7/2007 12:22:11 PM
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ZAROVE
Posts: 27
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Steve, I don't even acceptthe whole Tribulation theology. I deny the enturety of the Rapture ever happening.
So, thats sort of the reason we are failign to communicate I think. I dont anticipate a Seven Year Tribulaiton period, and the rule of Anti-Christ on the Earth, and a Tribulaiton, any more htan I anticipate a Rapture of the Church.
Jesus's second comign is on Judgement day, and htis signals the end.
It can happen any time.
And as I noted earlier, I don't forsee a physical, future 1000 year Riegn of Christ on Earth as King whose capital is in Jerusalem either, btu see the Kingdom as preasnet now.
Chalk-
quote:
I am amazed at how many texts you ignore.
I'm not ignorign any verses. I simply do not have a Millinienarian intepretation of the texts that you do. That doesn't eman I'm ignorign them.
quote:
Though you believe in the future SC, you still say Jesus is on his Throne when the scriptures say He is seated at the right hand of the father till all His enemies have become His footstool.
Maybe thats because he's seate don the THrone of Glory, which is also what the Scriptures say.
The Scripture doesn't say that sittign on Gods right hand is not the same as sittig ont he Throne fo David, and Acts Chapter 2 Verses 29-36 show rather ocnclusively that Christ was ressurected to sit ont he throne of David forever, on the right hand of the Father.
They quote the PSams sayng "Sit at my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool", and seem to indicate that this was said to a reignign King.
Not to soemone who wudl be made King int he future.
Below is the text.
29. Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30. Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31. He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35. Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Jesus IS Lord of Israel, now. He isn't a future Kign who has yet to reign, but reigns forever form the throne of David while sittign at the right hand of God.
There are other verses of coruse that shwo Christ as current King.
quote:
Then and only then does He sit on His own throne as Revelation states, and that happens when He Returns.
He's already sitting on his own throne, at the right hand of God, reigning formt he throne fo David over his Kingdom.
We are his Subjects.
quote:
Tell me...................are all His enemies His footstool now?
Yes, and his Enemies have been vanquished, even Satan has been defeated.
quote:
Is the last enemy.............death done away with?
Yes, for Jesus said that those who beleive upon him shall not die, but find Everlasting life, and the Blessed Apostle John said that those who beleiveth upon him shall not Perish but have everlastign life.
St, paul said "Death, where is thy Sting, Grave, where is thy victory?"
We do not die, upon our departign our mortal frames, but as Christaians have immortality.
Death was conquered by JEsus's own Ressurection, in which we enjoiun with him overhtis victory.
quote:
And I don't mean the new birth only for believers here. Check the end of the Rev when it says "there is NO MORE DEATH".
See above. Deaht is defeated already.
quote:
Isa 9 gives us a glimpse of past and future history..........................
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Note: "a child is born"..........past tense. A son is given........the Cross, also past tense. But the government upon His Shoulders is still to Come at His SC.
Actually from Isaiahs standpoitn in time, the Child was yet ot be born, and had not been given. Those events wheren't past tence to him at all.
(And "A son is given" doesn't mean the crucifiction.)
You can't possibely say that sicne Jesus already has been biorn and died, that thats the past, and what Isaiah was tlakign about, and then say the Govenrment shall be on his shulders is abotu the future, and expect this to make logical since givne that Isaiah wrote the text some 500 years or so prior to the events. (Forgive me if I get the date wrong but tis off th opi of my head, the poitn remaisn the same though.)
Isaiah's Child of promise was completley int he future.
You can't make it past tence in this case.
Not unles sits nto about Jesus at all.
quote:
It is one thing to say you believe in the SC, but another to leave out all that leads up to that up
to that Coming and what happens at that Coming. It is not simply judgment day, but a setting up His earthly reign.
At leats accprdign to you. However, I'd say there is no Earthly reign in the future, in hwich a Physical Kingdom, cspitaled in Jerusalem, is established. Rather, the Kingdom of our Lors was established as he said, within the lifetime of ht elisteners of his Prophecy.
For our Lord told the High Preist he wpudl live to see him come in powr and glory, and told his followers that that Generaiton woudl not pass away until they see his Kingdom. If the Kingdom has yet ot be established, jesus prophecy was false.
I have hear the raitoanlisaitons, that "Tjhis Generaiton" for exampel eans that which "sees the signs" but find it faulty sine it seems to be Jeus tlakign to the peopel of his own time.
However, understanding the Churhc as the Kingdom, established on Pentecost, eliminates this problem sicne Jesus's Kingdom is now manifest on the earth.
quote:
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
KJV
The 7th verse confirms what I stated in the 6th.
And dispte what those who attack Chistendom say, the Churhc and Christinty have always been a civilisign factor, bigning learnign, sicnece, disipline,a nd carign to those who lack it.
The most savage of cultures has been transformed by the advent of CHrustendom into beaons of civilisation, and th emost wretched of souls has known a peace that passes understandign to repalce th torment and anger that onc consumed it.
Thus, this is fulfille dby Christendom itsself, and our Eternal King does indeed brign peace to all ages.
quote:
Read Dan 2 and see when the "stone from the mountain cut out without hands" is set up for the chrono of Christ's earthly kingdom at His SC.
I hate tp break it to you, but I do't connect Daniel to the Tribulation or Rapture either.
quote:
You live in a symbolic and figurative world by your view of Scripture imo.
Yet you dont' seem to know what my view is, and do not even consider it before denouncign it. You just declare it wrong.
quote:
Yes, there is symbolic and figurative language used. But the symbol and the figures point to the True just as the types and shadows of the OT pointed to Christ's first Coming.
I'll go no farther till you try to refute the above.
Actually I'm not refuting anything, but you do seem to think that no one can possibley disagre with you once you say "Yoru wrong, thsi sit he right intoeretation" and give your view.
You arne't even consdeign what my view is, you just denounce it and insist on your own.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/7/2007 1:34:54 PM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread has gotten way off track. Please discuss the existence of a Rapture/Tribulation/Millennium Reign in a new thread.
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/8/2007 9:35:00 AM
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ta_mosquito
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MODERATOR'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
Frankie - I tried to PM you but your PM inbox is full.
I've deleted the last couple posts for being off topic. If you'd like to continue the discussion of Zarove's views, please do so either in PM's or in the Preterist One Stop thread.
Thank you!
Tricia
Forums Moderator
Please do not reply to this message within the forums or chat.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/13/2007 7:10:33 AM
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JESUS^
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Hi,my name is margarita ,far most important thing we must remember is GOD is in control of everything.I look at what i see every day in we are living in last days.What i have learn in my walk with JESUS is he is always an forever the same yesterday,today,tomorrow,an he is my BEST FRIEND FOREVER.thank you may GOD BLESS YOU. 
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/13/2007 4:00:11 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
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From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JESUS^
Hi,my name is margarita ,far most important thing we must remember is GOD is in control of everything.I look at what i see every day in we are living in last days.What i have learn in my walk with JESUS is he is always an forever the same yesterday,today,tomorrow,an he is my BEST FRIEND FOREVER.thank you may GOD BLESS YOU.
Amen margarita,
Welcome to Crosswalk.
And welcome to the discussions.
Yeshua, the same yesterday, today, and forever.
So reliable we have nothing to fear or dread.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/13/2007 8:55:24 PM
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bettymackII
Posts: 1465
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JESUS^
Hi,my name is margarita ,far most important thing we must remember is GOD is in control of everything.I look at what i see every day in we are living in last days.What i have learn in my walk with JESUS is he is always an forever the same yesterday,today,tomorrow,an he is my BEST FRIEND FOREVER.thank you may GOD BLESS YOU.
Welcome to the board Margarita!We agree with your post! Looking forward to seeing you post some more! God Bless you too!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/13/2007 10:38:02 PM
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jbow
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From: Dixie
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Well, I voted post-trib but I am not absolutely certain about that.
I think that the SC and the rapture are the same thing. Jesus come's both with and for the saints at the same time. I see no problem with Him coming with all those who have died in Christ, resurrecting their bodies, reuniting them with their bodies and changing us in the twinkling of an eye... all at the same time.
One other thing that bother's me about much eschatology is the AOD. I am not sure that the temple is going to be rebuilt and that the AOD does not refer to what Antiochus did in the temple. I just cannot imagine God allowing temple sacrifice to be reinstated after His sacrifice on the cross. I could be wrong. I have not really studied it. So I guess i'll stick with the post-trib view and then if I get a free ride out of any trouble... good but if I have to suffer much loss... then good. If we arre left to go through the trib and the mark of the beast come's upon us, American Christianty is going to be hard pressed to stand under it with all the prosperity and WOF teaching we have teaching people with itching ears wha tthey want to hear.
Sorry... (stepping off soapbox),
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/14/2007 12:41:05 AM
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bob97
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Well let’s see... it’s not pre trib and it’s not mid trib, does that make it post trib?
Nope, not as far as I’m concerned, I’m sticking to a pre wrath position which means there is some separation between the rapture and the second coming. How much is up for debate, could be a year and could be much less. How ever much time it takes for the trumpet judgments to play out.
How sure am I about this, well pretty sure but I wouldn’t be surprised if it didn’t happen quite the way I see it. On the other hand I bet everyone will be in for a few surprises.
Just when you think you dead right you could end up dead wrong.
If you study the issue you’ll find out that the trumpet sounded in 1Th 4::16 is sounded by God himself and the 7th trumpet in Rev is sounded by an angel.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then if you look at Mat 24:31 you will see that Christ is the one who sounds the trumpet and sends the angels to gather the saints.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Then if you look at Rev 11:15, guess who sounds the trumpet there…it’s an angel.
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.
Does anyone see a problem here?
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/14/2007 12:57:12 AM
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Okami
Posts: 562
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The 6th? chapter of Revelation, where The Spirit is writing to the church of Philadelphia, it commends them, and promises to "remove them" from the hour of wrath.
The promise through the Bible says that the Lord will be "with" us through tribulations, but here, it says He will remove us from them.
From what I understand, pre-tribbers and mid tribbers also use this as reference to their rapture theory, placing it before all tribulation, or right about the 6th seal, then suddenly there is a multitude that wasn't there before.
Is this a misinterpretation? What is the correct way of reading it?
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/14/2007 1:10:57 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
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The 6th seal occurs just prior to the beginning of the Day of the Lord, which occurs with the opening of the 7th seal. Both of these seals occur late in the second part of the week or somewhere late in the second 1260 day period.
In my opinion the Church will see the tribulation created by man and Satan which starts at the middle of the week, but would be removed prior to the Wrath of God. In any case the Church will be protected from the Wrath of God but not the tribulation of man.
Bob
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The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/14/2007 1:14:48 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
Is this a misinterpretation? What is the correct way of reading it
It's a misinterpretation albeit was deliberate.
Noah was not removed from the destruction of all living.
The Israelites were not removed through all the plagues of Egypt.
The Hebrew children were not removed from the fiery furnace.
But all were "kept" from the events.
We won't be removed from the earth to avoid the end time.
But we will be "kept" from the wrath of God.
The wrath of God is upon the unbelievers, not the believers.
We don't have to be gone to be kept from.
Get a rheem of paper, a blank wall, start putting the parables of
the end times, Wheat & Tares, The Net, the Marriage parables, etc.
Diagram them out. Diagram the book of Revelation out without the
preconceived notions we have inherited. What a surprise when you
are done.
I've pretty much got my dead set; but this year I realize I will have
to revisit my charts with new understanding with the Feasts that will
make them even more clear. This may take me another year to tweek.
That word "rapture" still gets in the way. LOL.
Stick with just "resurrection."
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/14/2007 1:15:57 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3471
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quote:
The Spirit is writing to the church of Philadelphia, it commends them, and promises to "remove them" from the hour of wrath.
This is what we say God said.
We have to let the Word do the talking for itself.
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Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/15/2007 12:42:49 AM
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chalkstc
Posts: 416
Joined: 5/13/2005
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Bob,
quote:
If you study the issue you’ll find out that the trumpet sounded in 1Th 4::16 is sounded by God himself and the 7th trumpet in Rev is sounded by an angel.
You must read slower.................the trump of God denotes His ownership, not His blowing it. Does it not say with the voice of the Arcangel?
And does it not say of the seven angels in the Rev that they were "GIVEN" the trumpets to blow?
Then who gave it to them? Whose trumpets are they to begin with?
This is not a play on words, but just logical thought conveyed. You seem to be making the three texts speak of different trumpets when they all culminate to Christ's SC.
line upon line etc.
You still are hung up on the all the church being in heaven at one time. It is not in 1 TH 4, nor in Rev 7.
The scriptures on any theme have fit seamlessly. But you are separating them in my opinion.
I asked where the dead in Christ are mentioed in Rev 7. You did not respond unless I missed it. Remember it says only those who came out of GT were numbered in the GM. Well did or were the dead in Christ in the GT? Nada!
Then where are they in the text if your GM is the whole raptured Church as prewrath believes?
Where is your possible year or so gap? We are not removed in Rev 3:10, but "kept" from the hour of temptation.
Do you know the old archaic meaning of the word "keep"? It was a jail where those within the walls were isolated from those outside the walls. Just like the "hedge" God put around Job.
That is what Paul meant when he said we are "prisoners" of Jesus Christ. We will be in the sphere of the temptation, but not touched by it. This is not removal as you say, but secure protection within. No rapture in that text at all.
"In the world but not of the world"
Think on these things!
Frankie
here what Jesus says to the disciples and I believe us also since they were the core of the early Church........................
John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
[ Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV]
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
KJV
Jesus prays the Father that we would NOT be removed, but "kept" from the evil (one)
What think ye?
< Message edited by chalkstc -- 11/15/2007 12:49:56 AM >
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Prov 27:17 iron sharpeneth iron as a man the countenance of his friend.
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RE: How many people believe in a pre-trib rapture and h... - 11/15/2007 10:59:09 AM
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bob97
Posts: 2019
Joined: 6/24/2006
From: Kansas
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Frankie,
I will change my position just as soon as the Holy Spirit guides me to do so. Until that time I will continue to work with what understanding I have.
Remember, I was in your camp for a while but I have since had to recant my position to where I am currently.
I keep telling you brother I understand exactly what your argument is and it is very compelling but I am now compelled to believe in another way. The word of God is a mystery and certainly has a lot of twist and turns, which I am still exploring. In fact I don’t expect to solve the mystery in this life but I will in the next. My study is a dynamic one and is altered with each new clue that I pick up on. You and several others have given me new clues as we go along and I appreciate that.
I know that each time I post in a way that is opposed to how you see it; you have to respond…I have no problem with that.
Quite frankly I am happy that we are as close as we are regarding how we see things playing out. We’re only off by a few months, maybe less than that. Certainly we are not off by 7 years. Even you admit that the Church is gathered in the Clouds before Christ comes to earth, all I am doing is expanding that time a little.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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