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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 4:57:28 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Keep in mind that the pov of the calvinist is that God causes everything. Even their thoughts.
The question is how they can claim God causes everything, including their thoughts, even their sinful ones, yet, God is not the cause of sin.
edited by moderator: responding to deleted post
No one says God causes all their thoughts, i.e., what they're having for dinner....just pure FG hyperbole. God accomplishes His will in many different ways....and yes, one of them is to put His thoughts into our minds. We see examples of this in the Bible, also, no one has a problem with God putting His thoughts into the inspired writers of Scripture, do they?
Oh, and btw, if you don't think God is the primary cause of sin then you haven't been reading your Bible very carefully....the Garden of Eden, Pharaoh, Joseph's brothers, the Crucifixion.....
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Did God send his son that whosoever believes will be saved.............or just a few?
Whosoever. John 3:16 Yep, and the "whosoever" are those the Father chose from before the foundation of the world.
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 4:59:40 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
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Or, more accurately, puppetry. I really don't know why that ruffles some of their feathers, since their pov is that God causes everything. Isn't that what the puppet master does?
Feathers?
Oh so now we are "bird puppets"?
Mighty sparrows! LOL
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given...........I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.............I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
KJB
Hey, KJB, that verse must be wrong somehow since we're told by the free willer's they decide whether they will believe or not - and are therefore saved. Probably should read something like "I am not praying for the world, but for all those who will choose to believe in Me."....'ya think?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:01:44 AM
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kelman
Posts: 4021
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: kelman
According to you, God saves everyone who believes. But YOU decide who will believe, therefore, YOU decide who will be saved. This is so elementary that it goes beyond reason for the free willers not to recognize what can only be the very real and only result of their theology.
The Bible agrees and shows God's choice FIRST !
Those born of God will believe says John.
1 John 5 (King James Version)
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
Absolutely, Manna!
Whosoever believes(PRESENTLY BELIEVES).....is born of God(HAVING BEEN COMPLETED IN THE PAST). Therefore, we are born of God and THEN we believe.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:11:35 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In fact, most of the times I read "elect" it is used as an adjective, which doesn't define anything." When "election" is used, the meaning is found in the purpose of what is being elected.
The term "elect" means chosen by God. As pertains to salvation, you understand "elect" to mean God chooses to save people because they believe. But, no, this is not the way God's uses elect in Scripture - He gets to do the choosing - not man.
His plan is to save those who believe. That is His "choosing". We believe, He chooses.
Remember, the Bible doesn't tell people to "choose" Christ. The Bible tells people to believe in Him. I don't disagree
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In your method, God does no more than "recognize" the one who believes.
Not so. He actually saves, forgives, justifies, and gives eternal life to the one who believes. Would you like to see the Scriptures for this? Why don't you just stick to the discussion? It's about God choosing a man to be saved or the man choosing to be saved. In your theology God simply gets to recognize the one doing the choosing - the man.
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You can also find that God not only elects or chooses to salvation, you can see that He elects for other reasons also, such as when He elected Israel. By His Spirit, God also chooses to work in the hearts of non-believers to accomplish His will - such as Saul, Cyrus, Pharaoh, etc.
This is pretty much what I posted in 4445. Nope, it's not, FG. The devil's in the details...notice the word "also".
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So again, since you disagree with everything I post, what, specifically, do you disagree with? Now, now, FG, as if you don't know what I disagree with. The above explains it pretty well.
I asked you for specifics about my post, and you still won't deal with any specific in my post. Why do you remain vague. Nothing vague between God choosing those who will believe unto salvation and your theology which has man choosing to believe unto salvation.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:17:18 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: HardKnox
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He told the crowd that Christ died for them and himself; that's what "our" means here.
You have a copy or recording of what exact words Paul spoke to the original crowd?
Yes. 1 Cor 15. Paul was specfic as to what his gospel message was, which was "Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures". That is what he said that he had told them (when they were all unbelievers) and that is what he said he preaches (v.11).
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This is the consistent and only handling of scripture I ever see out of you, nothing explicit, just verses you can work your imagination on out of your pov.
1 Cor 15 is quite specific as to what Paul preached.
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Paul is giving them the formula of the Gospel account death, burial, resurrection, and witness. He can say "our" to the church full of redeemed brothers and sisters, but there is no proof that he said "our" to the crowd from which they were drawn by the Spirit. That's just your slant since we have no record of what the exact content of his original message was. Now, why don't we talk about demon possession, since this is pretty much scraping the bottom of your barrel?
Paul was specific. What he wrote in 1 Cor 15 is what he had told them initially. It is clear enough.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:19:57 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: Eutychus
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Yet Cornelius did exactly that. The speculation is in your pov that thinks that God caused him to seek.
Until God moved to bring him the Gospel, was Cornelius saved by his "seeking" or did he still lack something before he could obtain eternal life?
No, Cornelius was not saved until he believed the gospel that Peter brought.
And, to be clear, no one is saved by their seeking, any more than they are saved by their believing. It is God who saves those who believe.
I'm not clear as to what you are asking re: "did he still lack something before he could obtain eternal life"? Please clarify.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:28:26 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: HardKnox
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Why do you think that my non-arm and non-cal pov is that God can't violate human freedom? I'm fully aware of the passages that clearly demonstrate His total sovereignty and omnipotence.
But, why can't you accept that God gave man the freedom to believe or reject Him? That's the fair question.
So, if (which is not quite consistent with your past posts, mind you) you believe God can violate human freedom, why would you think he must have given men freedom to believe or reject him, other than the whosoevers.
Not only all the whosoevers, but John 8:24, where Jesus tells those He called the children of the devil "if you believe not in Me, you will die in your sins", which is a clear warning with a clear solution, which makes no sense according to the reformed ov that Christ didn't die for the children of the devil. Also, Rom 3:32-25 in whcih Paul includes the entire human race in his explaining who will be justified through faith.
We've given you multiple clear and explicit texts teaching the total inability of men which you've found it necessary to twist around with tons of words and posts.
OK, let's be real clear here. I also AGREE that man is totally unable to save himself.
The Bible is crystal clear that man cannot save himself and must believe in Christ for eternal life.
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Can you give me one clear, explicit verse that says, say, "God gave man the freedom to believe or reject him." I think that's a fair request, don't you? I await.
Sure it's fair. I believe the concept is squite implicit in John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:40, 6:47, 11:25-27, and 20:31, as well as Eph 2:8 and Acts 16:31. Are those enough?
btw, you didn't answer my question. You got sidetracked with your "So, if..." Then you asked 3 more.
Can you answer my single question?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:36:57 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
Since the life of Cornelius does not indicate the basis by which he came to "recognize God as God" he can not be used as an example of someone who sought God on the basis of the creation alone.
The fact that he did is support.
He did something, but the cause is not described, so it is no support . . . only speculation.
I believe the cause is described. Acts 10 is about what Cornelius did as a result of knowing that God existed. He reverenced God and prayed to Him. It is what he did. If your pov were correct, we would have read something about what God did to him in order for him to do what he did.
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Because this is so, any example would have to be clear on why the person actual did seek God, which the passage regarding Cornelius does not. It is all mere speculation.
Yet Cornelius did exactly that. The speculation is in your pov that thinks that God caused him to seek.
You are the one who has brought up Cornelius as a showcase of natural man's ability. Take responsibility for your own error. I am simply showing that you have no biblical ground for your claims, only speculation.
What is clear is what Cornelius did. You want to dismiss what he did "on the grounds that the cause was not clear". Why did the Holy Spirit include Acts 10 and 11? Sure, it was an example of the Gentiles being included in the church.
But there are so many more details; such as Cornelius, as an unregenerate Gentile Centurion, being God fearing (reverencing) and praying continually. Then, all the details about the angel that God sent telling him very specific things such as his prayers coming up before God as a memorial.
But, you just want to ignore all of that and claim he is nothing more than an example of the Gentiles being assimilated into the church.
Just recall 2 Tim 3:16 - ALL Scripture is profitable.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:42:23 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The ONLY choosing as pertains to salvation is found in 2 Thess 2:13, and it is conditional.
No, God is the One who chooses
Which is the point of 2 Thess 2:13. He chooses to save through belief in the truth. The verse clearly does not support your pov that God causes anyone to believe. What it doesn't support is your theory of "conditional".
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Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
I hope you noted the order here: called and chosen. Called means to be invited. Those who respond to the invitation are chosen. Carry your "logic" through. If your "timeline" theory was correct they "responded" before they believed.
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We know for a fact that it is God who chooses each and every individual for salvation:
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
Again, notice the order. I fully agree that God chooses each and every one for salvation, just as 2 Thess 2:13 says. But God does NOT cause anyone to believe, as your pov claims. None of you calvinists have given any support. Not exactly what you believe. You believe God chooses each and everyone because they believe....so, nope, we don't agree. As for support, it's been given over and over, you just reject it....but, that doesn't mean it's not true.
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More evidence God chose the elect before the foundation of the world to be saved by the Lord Jesus Christ:
Pardon me, but Eph 1:4 isn't about "to be saved" but "to be holy and blameless". They are different, but you apparently don't understand. You have absolutely no biblical evidence to support your claim that "they are different". To be holy and blameless before God is to be saved.
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Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Note the words: Who is "us"? Paul is speaking to believers in Ephesus. And where are we (believers) chosen? In Him. No unbeliever can ever be said to be "in Him". Truly, that is ridiculous "WHERE are we chosen". What you won't try to do to a verse that disproves your theology! To be "in Christ" is to be saved, anything else is just silly rhetoric.
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Acts 1:5: for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
Rom 6:3: Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?"
1 Cor 12:13: For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether salves or free, and we were made to drink of one Spirit."
From these verses, we know that the Holy Spirit is the agent of this baptism, which places us (believers) into union with Christ. Yep, it's called regeneration. And we know the Holy Spirit regenerates only those the Father gave to Christ and for whom Christ shed His blood: 1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
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And finally, Eph 1:13 says "in Him you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation, having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise"
Please note the significant order here:
listening
believed
sealed
Therefore, ONLY believers are sealed in Christ, which is what Paul was saying in Eph 1:4.
You're not proving anything here, FG. Of course, when we become saved we are "sealed" by the Holy Spirit.
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Here we find the blood of Jesus Christ is spent only for the elect of God the Father.
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Excuse me, but the word "foreknowledge" sinks your pov. Quite the reverse, in fact, it sinks your theories. Before the foundation of the world God prearranged for the salvation of the elect.
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Further, Paul was clear on what his evangelistic message was in 1 Cor 15:1-4. He looked whole crowds in the eye and told them, "Christ died for OUR SINS". How could he honestly claim that unless Christ died for everyone? He couldn't and wouldn't have. Paul never claimed "Christ died for everyone"...you're just making that up. He said: Christ died for our sins IF we are saved: "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."
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Interestingly enough, what God does (sanctification by the Spirit) almost seems irrelevant - only what you perceive is your domain - belief - seems the most relevant.
It is very clear to me that from all the reformed postings, the reformed have little regard for believing as an issue in salvation. The word between "sanctification by the Spirit" and "belief in the Truth" is "and". In the Greek it is "kai" and is very flexible and has as many as 11 meanings. One of which is "even". I see those two expressions as equivalents. You may disagree. OK with me.
They are, in the sense that they go hand-in-hand....being saved and believing.
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Your position makes no sense. The "us" are those elected. To be "in Him" is to be saved.
All of this to say "believers". Why do you calvies shy away from that word? Why do you so seldom use it?
All of what, FG? Who has trouble saying believers? You're skimming way too many posts.
When have you answered "believers" in your posts? You want to say "elect", etc.
How do you know what I want to say? Why not read what I do say if you're going to respond? Definitely skimming your way through most posts....that's explains somethings anyway.
This post is just one of many examples. Just read above and you will see that you used the word "elect" 3 times. How many times did you use the word "believer"? None. Uh, about three times since we're counting. Odd remark for you since we were talking about elect/election/chosen. Seems only reasonable to use the terms we're discussing. So your point has no relevance...it's simply something you made up.
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The ones chosen in Eph 1:4 are believers, not unbelievers. No unbeliever can be said to be "in Christ". You keep saying this...why? The verse does NOT say we are chosen BECAUSE we believe. You are really bring your own preconceived ideas to this verse.
Please pay attention. I agree the verse doesn't say that we are chosen because we believe. You're right, it doesn't. Yet, that is your theology.
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But the verse IS saying that the ones "chosen" are those who are "in Him". See above for my support that "in Him" can only mean believers. Sorry, I can't "see above for support" since there is none. You just can't understand that to be "in Christ" and to be "holy and blameless" is to be saved. The verse is saying that from the foundation of the world God chose those He would save.
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So, that's who God has chosen "to be holy and blameless" in Eph 1:4. Believers. And ALL of them, not just some of them. The election in this verse is unconditional. He even chose those believers who are very snippy and curt (examples from this thread). Your conclusion is totally faulty. No where in that verse is there support for God choosing anyone because they believe. In order to come to that faulty conclusion you must twist the meaning of being "in Christ" and "holy and blameless". Quite an unnecessary thing to do..better to simply accept what the verse plainly says.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 5:58:08 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If you don’t mind, I’m going to put your 1 John 5:1 verse out in ESV so FG, Ode, rwe, and mc can get the sense of the Greek verb tense:
1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him.”
I'll check the tense, but 6 other translations say "is" and one says "will be".
rw, you don't need to bother. Here is what the verse is saying, "Everyone (currently) believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God". That's all. It says nothing of initial faith, or whether regeneration precedes faith at all. Yet, many reformists hang their hat on this verse as a proof text.
From my Greek grammar text, authored by a reformist, Wm Mounce, he says that participles (the believing ones) do not indicate absolute time, but do indicatae relative time. The participle built on the present tense stem indicates an action occurring at the same time as the main verb. What this means is that the phrase "the believing ones", which is a present participle, occurred at the same time as the action of the main verb, which is "have been born again".
So, this verse actually shows that intial faith and regeneration occur at the same time. When I went round and round with ol' TF and PP in the old humungous thread, I had believed that faith preceded regeneration. But when I got in to the tenses, I realized they happen together.
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It’ll be interesting to see how the Jr. Woodchuck Interlineary Bible translates this verse. Free, why don't you give us your reference book so he'll be quiet?
You really think so? My text is The Interlinear NIV, Parallel New Testament in Greek and English, with interlinear translation by Alfred Marshall. Also I have The Analytical Greek Lexicon: consisting of an Alphabetical Arrangement of Every Occurring Inflesion of Every Word Contained in the Greek New Testament Scriptures, with a Grammatical Analysis of each Word. That's the long title inside the book.
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“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” In other words, the only condition to salvation Jesus gives is rebirth (rwe— NOT repentance, that’s a fruit, not a root), something totally out of our control.
Not quite, HK. v.3 is repeated in v.5. The "see" in v.3 is equivalent to the "enter" in v.5. the point is that no one will enter heaven unless they have been regenerated.
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And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him. Matt 22
"The time has come," he said. "The kingdom of God is near.
Repent and believe the good news!"Mark 1
29The jailer called for lights, rushed in and fell trembling before Paul and Silas.
30He then brought them out and asked, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and
your household." Acts 16
Believing is a condition.
" He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved;
but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. Mk 16
Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace." Lk 7
Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes
and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. Luke 8
And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' Acts 2
By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you.
Otherwise, you have believed in vain. 1Cor 15
We are saved by faith. That's what my manual says, HK.
That is correct.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:05:17 AM
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TheosCentric
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If you don’t mind, I’m going to put your 1 John 5:1 verse out in ESV so FG, Ode, rwe, and mc can get the sense of the Greek verb tense:
1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him.”
I'll check the tense, but 6 other translations say "is" and one says "will be".
rw, you don't need to bother. Here is what the verse is saying, "Everyone (currently) believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God". That's all. It says nothing of initial faith, or whether regeneration precedes faith at all. Yet, many reformists hang their hat on this verse as a proof text.
So, if it's currently, what about those who used to? According to your doctrine, they are still born again. But according to what you just wrote, adding in "currently," they are not born of God. Which is it, FG?
On another note, I have something to add to the Christians being punished for sin from Hebrews 12 that you apparently believe.
A Christian is often not even disciplined for sin they commit. Oftentimes, it's just to grow them in holiness. I would add that if a person is not growing in holiness, and/or is not going through trials, then they should be asking why and if they are saved.
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:09:00 AM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Keep in mind that the pov of the calvinist is that God causes everything. Even their thoughts.
The question is how they can claim God causes everything, including their thoughts, even their sinful ones, yet, God is not the cause of sin.
edited by moderator: responding to deleted post
No one says God causes all their thoughts,
Yes, the C campers have claimed that God is in complete control which includes all one's thoughts. We've been round and round on this.
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God accomplishes His will in many different ways....and yes, one of them is to put His thoughts into our minds. We see examples of this in the Bible, also, no one has a problem with God putting His thoughts into the inspired writers of Scripture, do they?
This isn't the debate. The debate is whether God causes people to believe the gospel. I see no proof.
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Oh, and btw, if you don't think God is the primary cause of sin then you haven't been reading your Bible very carefully....the Garden of Eden, Pharaoh, Joseph's brothers, the Crucifixion.....
There it is, in black and white (or whatever your screen colors are). I believe the pov that "God is the primary cause of sin" is pure blasphemy. I have been reading my Bible extremely carefully since I've been on this thread. Can't afford not to.
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Did God send his son that whosoever believes will be saved.............or just a few?
Whosoever. John 3:16 Yep, and the "whosoever" are those the Father chose from before the foundation of the world.
You are just "mixing and matching" verses to suit your pov. There is no contextual relationship between Eph 1:4 and John 3:16.
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1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
The key here is the foreknowledge, upon which the election is based.
And the phrase "through sanctification of the Spirit" is also found in 2 Thess 2:13, where God chose us for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit, even belief in the truth.
Salvation is conditioned upon believing. So 1 Pet 1:2 and 2 Thess 2:13 are conditional elections.
Eph 1:4 election is unconditional. God has chosen every believer to be holy and blameless.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:12:07 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Hey, KJB, that verse must be wrong somehow since we're told by the free willer's they decide whether they will believe or not - and are therefore saved.
For clarity, my pov has always been that God has decided who He will save. His will is to give eternal life only to believers. John 6:40
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:15:14 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: kelman
According to you, God saves everyone who believes. But YOU decide who will believe, therefore, YOU decide who will be saved. This is so elementary that it goes beyond reason for the free willers not to recognize what can only be the very real and only result of their theology.
The Bible agrees and shows God's choice FIRST !
Those born of God will believe says John.
1 John 5 (King James Version)
1Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God:
Absolutely, Manna!
Whosoever believes(PRESENTLY BELIEVES).....is born of God(HAVING BEEN COMPLETED IN THE PAST). Therefore, we are born of God and THEN we believe.
Not quite, kelman. See my post 6461. The present participle "believing ones" occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb "has been born of God".
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:20:29 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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In your method, God does no more than "recognize" the one who believes.
Not so. He actually saves, forgives, justifies, and gives eternal life to the one who believes. Would you like to see the Scriptures for this?
Why don't you just stick to the discussion? It's about God choosing a man to be saved or the man choosing to be saved. In your theology God simply gets to recognize the one doing the choosing - the man.
No, my pov is that God planned to save only believers.
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You can also find that God not only elects or chooses to salvation, you can see that He elects for other reasons also, such as when He elected Israel. By His Spirit, God also chooses to work in the hearts of non-believers to accomplish His will - such as Saul, Cyrus, Pharaoh, etc.
This is pretty much what I posted in 4445. Nope, it's not, FG. The devil's in the details...notice the word "also".
Yes. And I've already noted that Judas was among the "chosen", which demonstrates that election isn't about salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:28:43 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The debate is whether God causes people to believe the gospel. I see no proof.
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(Eze 36:27 ESV) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Mat 11:26 ESV) yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
(Mat 11:27 ESV) All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(Joh 6:44 ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:45 ESV) It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
(Joh 6:64 ESV) But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
(Joh 6:65 ESV) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(Act 5:31 ESV) God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
(Act 13:48 ESV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(Act 16:14 ESV) One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
(Php 1:29 ESV) For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
(2Ti 2:25 ESV) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
(2Ti 2:26 ESV) and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(1Co 2:4 ESV) and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(Php 1:6 ESV) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Eph 1:3 ESV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
(Eph 1:4 ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(Mat 11:25 ESV) At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:31:03 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Further, Paul was clear on what his evangelistic message was in 1 Cor 15:1-4. He looked whole crowds in the eye and told them, "Christ died for OUR SINS". How could he honestly claim that unless Christ died for everyone? He couldn't and wouldn't have.
Paul never claimed "Christ died for everyone"...you're just making that up. He said: Christ died for our sins IF we are saved: "if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain."
Do you realize what your statement "He said: Christ died for our sins IF we are saved" means? It means that Christ died only for saved people. That is surely erroneous. He died for the ungodly.
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But the verse IS saying that the ones "chosen" are those who are "in Him". See above for my support that "in Him" can only mean believers.
Sorry, I can't "see above for support" since there is none. You just can't understand that to be "in Christ" and to be "holy and blameless" is to be saved. The verse is saying that from the foundation of the world God chose those He would save.
It doesn't say that at all. That is how you interp it. The phrase "holy and blameless" isn't a synonym for being saved, but rather refers to our experiential sanctification. This is in keeping with all of the commands throughout the NT for believers to be holy and blameless. That's what God chose for believers to be.
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So, that's who God has chosen "to be holy and blameless" in Eph 1:4. Believers. And ALL of them, not just some of them. The election in this verse is unconditional. He even chose those believers who are very snippy and curt (examples from this thread). Your conclusion is totally faulty. No where in that verse is there support for God choosing anyone because they believe.
Who is said to be "in Christ"? Only believers can be. That's who Paul was speaking of. Eph 1:4 is an election of believers, not unbelievers to be saved, as you think.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:35:16 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If you don’t mind, I’m going to put your 1 John 5:1 verse out in ESV so FG, Ode, rwe, and mc can get the sense of the Greek verb tense:
1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him.”
I'll check the tense, but 6 other translations say "is" and one says "will be".
rw, you don't need to bother. Here is what the verse is saying, "Everyone (currently) believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God". That's all. It says nothing of initial faith, or whether regeneration precedes faith at all. Yet, many reformists hang their hat on this verse as a proof text.
So, if it's currently, what about those who used to? According to your doctrine, they are still born again. But according to what you just wrote, adding in "currently," they are not born of God. Which is it, FG?
Both. 1 John 1:5 doesn't speak of former believers. John is emphasizing those who currently believe. iow, in order for one to currently believe, they had to be born again. But, the action of the present participle occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb.
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On another note, I have something to add to the Christians being punished for sin from Hebrews 12 that you apparently believe.
A Christian is often not even disciplined for sin they commit. Oftentimes, it's just to grow them in holiness.
What do you mean by "its just to grow them". What is "it"?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:36:46 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 8275
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The debate is whether God causes people to believe the gospel. I see no proof.
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(Eze 36:27 ESV) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Mat 11:26 ESV) yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
(Mat 11:27 ESV) All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(Joh 6:44 ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:45 ESV) It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--
(Joh 6:64 ESV) But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
(Joh 6:65 ESV) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
(Act 5:31 ESV) God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
(Act 13:48 ESV) And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
(Act 16:14 ESV) One who heard us was a woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple goods, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.
(Php 1:29 ESV) For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake,
(2Ti 2:25 ESV) correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
(2Ti 2:26 ESV) and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.
(1Co 2:4 ESV) and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
(1Co 2:5 ESV) that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
(Php 1:6 ESV) And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Eph 1:3 ESV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
(Eph 1:4 ESV) even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
(Mat 11:25 ESV) At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
OK, TC. Which verses say that God causes anyone to believe? I still see no proof.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:39:55 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: HardKnox
If you don’t mind, I’m going to put your 1 John 5:1 verse out in ESV so FG, Ode, rwe, and mc can get the sense of the Greek verb tense:
1 John 5:1 “Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whomever has been born of him.”
I'll check the tense, but 6 other translations say "is" and one says "will be".
rw, you don't need to bother. Here is what the verse is saying, "Everyone (currently) believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God". That's all. It says nothing of initial faith, or whether regeneration precedes faith at all. Yet, many reformists hang their hat on this verse as a proof text.
So, if it's currently, what about those who used to? According to your doctrine, they are still born again. But according to what you just wrote, adding in "currently," they are not born of God. Which is it, FG?
Both. 1 John 1:5 doesn't speak of former believers. John is emphasizing those who currently believe. iow, in order for one to currently believe, they had to be born again. But, the action of the present participle occurs at the same time as the action of the main verb.
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On another note, I have something to add to the Christians being punished for sin from Hebrews 12 that you apparently believe.
A Christian is often not even disciplined for sin they commit. Oftentimes, it's just to grow them in holiness.
What do you mean by "its just to grow them". What is "it"?
"it" = discipline
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 12/3/2008 6:41:37 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 2035
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The debate is whether God causes people to believe the gospel. I see no proof.
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
(Eze 36:26 ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
(Eze 36:27 ESV) And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.
(Mat 11:26 ESV) yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.
(Mat 11:27 ESV) All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
(Joh 6:44 ESV) No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
(Joh 6:45 ESV) It is | | |
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