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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 3:44:10 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 1043
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From: Iowa
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Does anybody understand that time is duration (not the measurement of time but time itself)?
How can God exist without duration?
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 4:57:21 PM
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Diolectic
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From: Iowa
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Cute boy!
quote:
ORIGINAL: lilyofthefield
I don't believe time is as simple as just "duration". Most hold to the premise that time is a dimension and relates to an infinite sequence of events. This sequence still has a beginning as opposed to God Who is eternal That is why God could not have created time.
Because there was no begining. However, since there is a now (even before creation), there had to have been time.
Say that God said, "now" before all creation. That word "now" had to be in a time.
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Rather, He is the Creator of time and space. Was there a "time" before ALL creation?
When God was before creation was a time when He hadn't created yet.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 8:54:23 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 1043
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lilyofthefield
I guess if you are starting with the assumption that God cannot exist outside of time, then a possibility is that time is part of the very nature of God Himself and has always been, just as God has always been. There has never been a TIME when God was not existing, however, there has been a TIME when there was no mesurement of time.
I like William Lane Craig, He has never lost a debate.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 9:18:59 PM
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benjoseph
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Does anybody understand that time is duration (not the measurement of time but time itself)?
How can God exist without duration?
I think part of the problem is too much science fiction. People actually think the future and the past are real places that God would be blocked out of if he were "inside" the little box of time.
Just because calendars show more than one day at a time doesn't mean any day besides today actually exists. People might think you're "confining" God to one little box on the calendar. They might think the others boxes (days) are really out there somewhere all lined up in a row and so of course God can go "there" (or 'then'). The challenge in this case would be to explain that the past and future do not exist. Only the present is real. If the past and future do not exist then it is NOT limiting God to say that he exists in the present because there is no where else but the present.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 9:22:24 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5789
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quote:
Does anybody understand that time is duration (not the measurement of time but time itself)? No, it is not! The measurement of time defines duration. Time is a dimension of created reality as we have told you for some duration now...
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How can God exist without duration? Because He TRANSCENDS time and is timeless. Do you understand the simple meaning of "eternal"? Apparently not...
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That is why God could not have created time.
Because there was no begining. Say what?! My very first post was Genesis 1:1. Please review your Bible, Dio! God created space and matter IN THE BEGINNING.
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Was there a "time" before ALL creation? Of course not! Only God existed at the beginning of creation (space, matter, time). Please review John 1:1 for your next assignment.
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When God was before creation was a time when He hadn't created yet. This is an illogical absurdity. There can be NO "when" and NO "before" until God created time!
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there has been a TIME when there was no mesurement of time. Now finally here is something I might possibly agree with you, Dio. As I've already demonstrated, time began to exist when God spoke light into existence (photons traveling through space over time). However, time was not measured until the division of light (day) from dark (night) at the close of the first day (Gen 1:5). So it certainly seems possible according to the Genesis text that light existed in some unmeasured timeframe until God divided it from dark and named the measurements of time.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 10:01:52 PM
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lilyofthefield
Posts: 468
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From: NC, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
There has never been a TIME when God was not existing, however, there has been a TIME when there was no mesurement of time.
I like William Lane Craig, He has never lost a debate.
Yes, I guess that would be the difference between our time or cosmic time vs. God's time, whatever that may be.
_____________________________
Psalm 113:9
He settles the barren woman in her home as a happy mother of children. Praise the LORD.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 10:07:06 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5789
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quote:
God's time, whatever that may be. God does not "have time" - He is timeless! He can and does enter our time for human interaction at His timeless pleasure.
Do any of you think that God has or is made of matter/energy? Does He occupy space? Of course not! So why would anyone think that God has time or is confined to time? Some of you are really not seeing the obvious here!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 10:19:27 PM
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AskSeekKnock
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I don't know if this helps, or if it is relevant. I came across this verse and thought I would post it.
John 11:9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.
He could just be speaking in human terms because He knows that's how we measure the day. Anyway, something to think on.
_____________________________
John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 10:40:28 PM
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drmark
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quote:
As for not "seeing the obvious" you might want to try actually reading all of my previous posts before judging what I believe. I wasn't judging anything, lotf. I'm truly sorry you took offense at my comments. This is a very abstract issue and using precise terminology is critical for good communication. Thank you for your contribution.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/5/2010 11:57:32 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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In order to be "outside of time" or to "transcend time" time would have to have limits. Time does not have any limits therefore it has no outside or inside. There is no such thing as transcending something that has no limits. There would be no limits to transcend.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 12:06:52 AM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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The word "exist" is a present tense verb.
For example: I exist. This statement implies that I exist now.
The future does not exist. The past does not exist.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 10:31:28 AM
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benjoseph
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I think a dimension may just be a rule of measurement rather than something one is "in". Dimensions could just be a way of looking at reality. There's no cosmic graph paper to mark out dimensions in space. I think that's all mental stuff necessary for measurement. I don't think dimensions are spiritual or physical.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 10:31:41 AM
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drmark
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quote:
Time does not have any limits therefore it has no outside or inside. Nonsense! Time had a beginning evidenced in Scripture and in scientific methodology. Eccl 3:17 says that God sets eternity in our hearts yet we cannot fathom what He has done from beginning to end. Thus time has limits!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 10:34:26 AM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Time does not have any limits therefore it has no outside or inside. Nonsense! Time had a beginning evidenced in Scripture and in scientific methodology. Eccl 3:17 says that God sets eternity in our hearts yet we cannot fathom what He has done from beginning to end. Thus time has limits!
drmark, I don't understand you. What is your evidence that time has limits?
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 10:56:33 AM
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lilyofthefield
Posts: 468
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From: NC, USA
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The space-time theorem of relativity and the Bible both say that time as we experience it had a beginning. Would you consider that a limit? Our experience of time certainly has limits. If you imagine the possibilities beyond our our experience of the time dimension (imagine a plane of time rather than a line) it becomes evident that God could easily be the "uncaused first cause".
_____________________________
Psalm 113:9
He settles the barren woman in her home as a happy mother of children. Praise the LORD.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 11:09:09 AM
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drmark
Posts: 5789
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
drmark, I don't understand you. What is your evidence that time has limits? Of course you don't wish to understand because your mind is already made up. Lily has answered correctly in the post above. Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 both demonstrate that time had a beginning. The expansion of the universe indicates that time had a beginning. These evidences are as incontrovertible as they can be with our finite capabilities of comprehension, bj.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 5:36:43 PM
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drmark
Posts: 5789
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
To presume that those concepts apply to Adonai and anything else He might have created is also presumptious. "Anything else" - are you serious, Bt? The epitome of presumption is to presume that God created "anything else" at all given the text of Scripture and the observational evidence of methodologic science!
Good grief, has this thread degenerated into some goofy Star Trek script about alternate universes? Puhleeze...
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 7:59:45 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lilyofthefield
The space-time theorem of relativity and the Bible both say that time as we experience it had a beginning. Would you consider that a limit? I haven't studied the relativity theory enough to comment on it. I am interested however because I expect the idea of relativity fits nicely with my understanding of time. I don't know where the Bible says time had a beginning. I agree that light and the sun, moon, and stars had a beginning but I don't think that means anything more than what it says. Where does the Bible say that time could have a beginning?
I also think the concept of a "beginning" of time is theologically impossible. My current understanding of Time is that Time is simply the possibility of change and nothing more. As long as change COULD occur you have Time. If there is no time then change is not possible.
It has always been possible for God to cause change.
Therefore, there has always been the possibility of change.
Change has always been possible.
Time is the possibility of change.
Therefore, there has always been Time.
That's how I understand it right now.
Furthermore, because of God's omnipotence and freedom, change always has been and always will be possible. Therefore there are no limits to the possibility of change. Again, Time is the possibility of change. Therefore there are no limits to Time.
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Our experience of time certainly has limits. I don't know... I think experiencing time just means experiencing the possibility of change. The knowledge of this possibility seems to be a necessary and self-evident first truth of the reason. I don't think we can be personal beings without assuming the concept of change. The concept of change is necessary to understanding cause and effect. An understanding of cause and effect is necessary to being a personal, rational and moral creature.
My point here is that it seems the "experience of time" is more of a 'yes' or 'no' kind of thing; On or Off. Do we acknowledge the possibility of change or do we not notice this possibility? Rocks have no experience of time because they do not experience the possibility of change. We do.
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If you imagine the possibilities beyond our our experience of the time dimension (imagine a plane of time rather than a line) it becomes evident that God could easily be the "uncaused first cause".
Time has a lot of definitions. Because we have memory our minds build this mental time-line of all of our memories as we grow. We can picture this in our minds as being like a physical line or sequence. This conceptual memory time-line may be validly called "time" but it would not be the same thing as 'Time' in the sense of the possibility of change. Our mental time-line is in our minds. We may think of ourselves as being on a point on this imaginary line called time but that is only in our heads. It's not wrong to think this way. Perhaps God may also compare memories to the present in a similar way. But it is wrong to start thinking that we really exist on some kind of created line. If this were true then the past and future would also exist. The past and future do not exist however. Reality is only what exists right now. Our memories are real but the events they represent no longer exist. Our predictions of the future may be real but the future itself does not exist.
I don't know the best way to express this idea. It seemed counter-intuitive to me when I first started thinking about it roughly a year ago. I think the difficulty of it was that it was so simple and almost unintellectual.
I did not understand what you said about the "uncaused first cause" but I can't say I agree that time itself is a line of any sort, nor a plane or any geometric construct that we might have in our minds for sorting our memories.
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RE: Creation & Time - 3/6/2010 8:19:51 PM
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benjoseph
Posts: 205
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
drmark, I don't understand you. What is your evidence that time has limits? Of course you don't wish to understand because your mind is already made up. drmark, I'm sorry if I've given you cause to think I am not willing to be intellectually honest. It would be better if you would explain why you think I am stubborn about this - that way, if I have been dishonest with you or myself I will change. I value the truth more than my own understanding.
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Lily has answered correctly in the post above. Gen 1:1 and John 1:1 both demonstrate that time had a beginning. You mean because it says "in the beginning"? I don't think the idea of time "beginning" is a coherent concept so I can't interpret the bible to be saying something incoherent. I've always taken it to be in the context of creation, not the context of eternity past. Don't both passages go on to discuss the creation? That's why I think "the beginning" references the time of the creation. I think a lot of people probably take it this way. I kind of see how you might be taking it. I have to disagree because the idea of a "beginning of time" seems incoherent, meaningless, etc. I'm not saying that to be stubborn, but to be honest with myself and you.
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The expansion of the universe indicates that time had a beginning. Even though I believe the concept is incoherent I'd be willing to hear why you think the movement of galaxies and such indicates anything about what we call time.
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These evidences are as incontrovertible as they can be with our finite capabilities of comprehension, bj. I'd be glad to find I was wrong if it means learning, but I don't see anything wrong with what I currently believe about time, nor do I see a better alternative.
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I was merely making a hypothetical case for the person who insists that God cannot exist outside of time.
to read all the posts. Time is an intangable concept and/or form of measurement. An intangable concept can be conceived instantaniously and a form of measurement need not be established until well after the conception of that which it is measuring. Mathematics existed long before the concept of zero was applied. It wasn't that "nothing" was not a concept. It was just not thought worthy of a measurement designation. I believe the concepts of existance and experience have always been. Presuming there were no other creations needing to measure duration before us (an unprovable presumption), then there would have been no need for the measurement of duration and thus no "time". One event followed another. The duration of the events and the intervals were irrelevant. In Genesis we have a record of Adonai establishing events and interals for this creation. To presume that those concepts apply to Adonai and anything else He might have created is also presumptious.